AIBU to think these Welsh language requirements are ridiculous (and bordering on discrimination?)

[DimDimDiolch]

Context: I run a micro business in urban South Wales, where I rarely hear Welsh spoken, and many Welsh born-and-bred people don't speak a word of Welsh. I lived my whole life in England (no Welsh lessons at school - or anywhere else!) until about 18 months ago. I've picked up the odd bit of Welsh here and there (diolch, dim, croeso, nos da, bara, araf - that sort of thing) but I'm far from fluent. My business isn't yet big enough to employ anyone else.

My business is the sort of business where you attend events, pay for a pitch and sell products to the general public.

I've now been denied pitches at a couple of events purely on the grounds that I don't speak Welsh, even though literally everyone locally speaks English (except those who only speak Polish or Urdu...). AIBU to think it's a matter of anti-English sentiment, bordering on discrimination, that I'm experiencing? It all feels a bit 'jobs for the boys' to me, when my Welsh speaking ability has nothing to do with the products I sell.

Success or otherwise would not be down to the language you are taught in, as long as you understand that language. That is nationalism.

(which OP is dodging naming / My guess Except she did... why guess?

She named one such group

I'm a bit puzzled as to why it's essential to speak Welsh in an area where...very few people speak Welsh.
Totally anecdotal but my mum was very upset years ago in Llandudno when some women in a shop who were speaking English suddenly stopped, glared at her, and switched to Welsh. I'm not quite sure why they were punishing her for centuries of cultural imperialism.

Iechyd Da

Even if they think it's spelt yakky da.

Now now Haverhill That never happens. As posters have already pointed out.

The very fact that other posters, myself included, have experienced it, means nothing.

I do speak a little Welsh, understand a little more. But won't ever try out any more. I get ignored. One woman told her friend (in Welsh) how crap it was that I was speaking Wlesh... it was so obvious I am English. Yeah! I am. But was visiting my great grams birthplace. She was Welsh through and though and was the one who taught me Welsh when I was a kid. Not my fault I learned ot with a scouse accent!

Happily I can use it in Brittany... were the French take time to explore the differences and chat about the similarities!

OP, you said one of the organisations denying you a pitch is Menter Caerdydd. Looking on their website, the "about us" page says that their aim is to promote and expand the use of the Welsh language on a community basis in Cardiff "ensuring that the language becomes a central part of life in Cardiff and that the responsibility for its future is shared by every citizen". With that in mind, it is hardly surprising that they want business/exhibitors who use Welsh. Is the other organisation you have referred to similar?

mentercaerdydd.cymru/en/about-us/

Incidentally, I grew up in Wales with non-Welsh-speaking parents, and learned Welsh at school - I was fluent then, but very much not now! I live in England now, but have many friends and family members still living in Wales, none of whom have been impeded in employment or business because of an inability to speak Welsh. If I had stayed, I would certainly have tried to retain my Welsh (I still understand it pretty well and watch S4C from time to time) - without Menter Caerdydd and similar initiatives, we will lose an ancient language and its cultural legacy.

There is a whole generation of people born and brought up in Wales who don’t speak Welsh. I am 50 and neither my brother nor I had the option of learning Welsh at school in Cardiff. It wasn’t offered as a subject.

Totally anecdotal

Just that. I (once) knew enough Welsh on one occasion to know that some English people who were complaining that a couple of Welsh speakers were pulling them to bits, were doing nothing of the sort. It was two girls talking about something completely boring such as their wonderful new boyfriends.

Success or otherwise would not be down to the language you are taught in, as long as you understand that language. That is nationalism.

But saying of a successful person that they are so despite being taught in Welsh is cultural imperialism.

Menter Caerdydd ... says that their aim is to promote and expand the use of the Welsh language on a community basis in Cardiff "ensuring that the language becomes a central part of life in Cardiff and that the responsibility for its future is shared by every citizen"

Like all organisations their aims are their own affair, but how exactly is it their place to dictate what "every citizen" should be responsible for - especially if they don't share the aims?

The "only 19%" who speak Welsh seems to vary according to who's asked and where they're asked, but just out of interest, does anyone know if there's anyone left who speaks only Welsh with no other language at all?

Very similar arguments against the retention, value and use of the Welsh language as are heard and used against the retention value and use of the Maori language.

The way the Welsh have halted the decline and loss of the Welsh language has been a source of great inspiration to those seeking to halt the decline and loss of the Maori language.

Totally anecdotal but my mum was very upset years ago in Llandudno when some women in a shop who were speaking English suddenly stopped, glared at her, and switched to Welsh. I'm not quite sure why they were punishing her for centuries of cultural imperialism.

Because they had probably been brought up with myths and half truths about English 'imperialism' and an attitude of 'it's all the fault of the English' and that all English people must be held to account for it, even those who weren't even born during the age of imperialism.

There was a comment on here the other day when a poster quite happily claimed that their ancestor had 'killed 3 English soldiers with a kitchen knife during the clearances' . I'm assuming this was the highland clearances? But there is no record of more than 2 people dying during an eviction and even those deaths are debatable, and it was more likely the soldiers or militia would have been Scottish anyway. Often these HC stories give the impression that no one in England was evicted in the same way. Which is not true.

Some might say it doesn't matter but the dangerous thing is that these kind of myths and historical half truths breed mistrust and resentment, with people positioning themselves on one side to blame the other. The truth is the English commoner went through the same and we should be united in shared historical experience instead of bickering between ourselves all the time.

As an English person in England I have been to places where people all stop talking and glare at you. Ignorant behaviour is not confined to one nationality.

I think it's mad to move to other country, not bother to learn the language, and then be outraged when that proves to very occasionally cause you problems.

Becoming fluent in another language as an adult is tough. By saying no one should move to Wales without learning Welsh, you are saying that only a small number of people should move to Wales.

Totally anecdotal, but my experience as an English tourist is that the average English visitor can't distinguish Welsh and English from each other at any reasonable distance, especially if the Welsh speakers are nattering about delays on the bws (pronounced bus), going to the siop (pronounced shop), or the rygbi (rugby).

They hear a UK accent, presume the peeple are speaking English, and then get close enough to hear it's actually Welsh.

Then they conclude the speakers just changed when they saw an English person come up to them. Nah. Switching languages isn't like changing the channels on a TV set.

The idea that in South Wales Welsh isn't really spoken is very silly. There's a large portion of the population who don't speak Welsh, yes. But it's not a dead language.

I live in Cardiff and have friend from Cardiff who speak Welsh as a first language, not learning English until they attended school.

My great grandmother never spoke English. In the North of Cardiff you'll hear Welsh on the street just as often as you'll hear English. Particularly in Radyr and Rhiwbina.

It's very much a living language and it very much needs protection because of attitudes like this.

You still haven't said what events OP, so like PP I can only assume they're Welsh language/Welsh Government funded events eg the Eisteddfod.

I live in Cardiff, speak Welsh and work in a prominent public sector/civil service organisation, and I can tell you that the majority of people don't speak Welsh, and so I call absolute BS on those saying there's discrimination going on. Some jobs require the use of Welsh, in the same way some jobs require the use of a car, it's no different.

I also call BS on your claim that no one in Cardiff speaks Welsh as I live fairly centrally and hear it everywhere. I also hear lots of other languages alongside English. My DS' Welsh language school has a three form entry and is oversubscribed, like all other Welsh language schools in Cardiff. It's only increasing and many non Welsh speaking families send their children to Welsh schools.

If your friend is Welsh and has lived in Cardiff all his life, and had never heard "Nadolig Llawen", then you need new friends, he clearly doesn't get out ever.

JamieVardysHavingAParty years ago I worked where Welsh was spoken as a first language, I don't speak Welsh. Two men were having a conversation and I learned that there is no word in Welsh for dildo. I didn't have a clue about the rest of the conversation but I got the gist

[grin

Now there's a loan word I hadn't thought of!

By saying no one should move to Wales without learning Welsh, you are saying that only a small number of people should move to Wales.

But that's not what I'm saying. Just that if you move to Wales and don't learn Welsh you have to accept that may occasionally be an inconvenience.

@DimDimDiolch so you've name checked Menter...who are an organisation all about improving access to Welsh events with the aim of supporting Welsh language learners and speakers.

I'm guessing that you've also been rejected by Tafwyl...a Welsh language festival held in Cardiff.

As many others have asked which events are rejecting you?

Neither of these organisations decline access to service users if you don't speak Welsh, but they are specifically aiming to celebrate and promote the Welsh language. It would go against the entire reason the companies/events exist if they let monoglots take over the pitches with no regard for the aims of the event. If you're pitching to be part of a Welsh language event, then those attending will expect to be able to do business with you in Welsh. Surely that's not difficult to understand? I wouldn't rock up to an event in Ireland as a business that was aimed at promoting Gaelic and refuse to engage with the language on the principal that English is more widely spoken.

As to the idea that no one in Cardiff speaks Welsh, open your ears. I hear Welsh spoken daily in my part of the city and my daughter's football team could technically be a Welsh language one because all the girls are fluent...not all from one area of Cardiff either.

You are not being discriminated against! FFS get a grip!

By saying no one should move to Wales without learning Welsh, you are saying that only a small number of people should move to Wales

Depending on the level of fluency demanded, there can also be danger in restricting things to a very small candidate pool when it comes to recruitment

My own interest in this is based on exactly that - I've recruited specialist HCPs nationwide and came to understand that putting arbitrary stumbling blocks in the way isn't always the wisest route if you want to attract the best and safest. There are of course Welsh people who are as good as or better than anyone, but it's a matter of numbers - and limiting things to 19% (or whatever) of the population can bring issues with it

There are pockets of this worldwide. My friend moved to NYC said in the hisidic district she could not get served despite speaking welsh.

A friend works the Urdd every year. A yorkshire man through and through who does live in Wales. A real money spinner 3k a day. So I would not say it was them

I live in Cardiff and my level of Welsh is embarrassing (I'm not Welsh). When I moved here (for work) I trained with 2 other people whose first language was Welsh and they used to chat in it. They'd apologise and I'd keep telling them not to - it was lovely to hear two young people so proud of and delighted to use their first language. I hear lots of Welsh in Cardiff and it always makes me happy to hear it. I'm trying to learn a language already which makes it difficult for me to learn Welsh as well, but I do feel ashamed of my ignorance.