AIBU to think these Welsh language requirements are ridiculous (and bordering on discrimination?)

[DimDimDiolch]

Context: I run a micro business in urban South Wales, where I rarely hear Welsh spoken, and many Welsh born-and-bred people don't speak a word of Welsh. I lived my whole life in England (no Welsh lessons at school - or anywhere else!) until about 18 months ago. I've picked up the odd bit of Welsh here and there (diolch, dim, croeso, nos da, bara, araf - that sort of thing) but I'm far from fluent. My business isn't yet big enough to employ anyone else.

My business is the sort of business where you attend events, pay for a pitch and sell products to the general public.

I've now been denied pitches at a couple of events purely on the grounds that I don't speak Welsh, even though literally everyone locally speaks English (except those who only speak Polish or Urdu...). AIBU to think it's a matter of anti-English sentiment, bordering on discrimination, that I'm experiencing? It all feels a bit 'jobs for the boys' to me, when my Welsh speaking ability has nothing to do with the products I sell.

Drabarni

That's a shame. It's such a wrench when you look at the point in history where a language disappears, and I guess it must be even worse when it should be a piece of your own heritage.

I have never heard anyone being asked when they enter these events if they speak welsh and being refused entry if they do not.

It is difficult if you are trying to promote welsh products and skills at these events and you get someone with a jam producer from Lands End applying when you have a jam producer from Caernarfon applying you do have to ask whether the Caernarfon applicant may be the better choice.

If you are promoting a business many others are involved in it is a headache.

Um, when I spoke about the Maori - I was quite specific I was talking about the Maori language, nothing else.

There are certain things you tend to hear from people resistant to the mainstreaming of Maori language in Aotearoa.

'If they want to save their language, that's fine, but they should have to be the ones to learn it, why should it be forced upon the rest of us'. . .

'What's the point? It's a dead language, it's not spoken anywhere else, it's not going to help you get a job (bullpucky, extremely useful in teaching, or any public sector service, or in broadcasting, not to mention definitely a goer if you want to get a job with an iwi (tribal) organisation, and they are increasingly powerful and influential movers and shakers'

'I don't want the kids wasting their time learning that rubbish at school - more time on the 3R's, I say!'

There was no comparison of the Maori 'genocide' with the Welsh people. (Incidentally, the plural of Maori, is Maori. No 's' on the end.)

The Welsh effort to preserve their language and recreate it into a living one, has been a source of great inspiration to the Maori and New Zealanders who have sought to do the same in NZ. We now have immersion schools (kura) at both primary and secondary level, we have children growing up totally bilingual, which is fantastic. We have far more everyday usage, and even the most resistant have a smattering of basic phrases and words. Some Maori terms are now used more commonly than not in media and everyday usage in NZ.

'There's too much Maori being used on the telly/radio, shut up and speak English, so everyone can understand'

'What a waste of money spending time on Bi-lingual stuff, everyone knows English, and if they don't, they bloody well should'

'It's so rude when people speak in Maori in front of you, especially if they can speak English. They're just showing off, and trying to make me feel bad, or talking smack about me'.

I haven't RTFT, but am I right in thinking the OP is complaining she can't be at an event aimed at Welsh speakers and learners (Menter Iaith) because of her lack of Welsh?
🤦
OP, if these are events you really want to be at, then make the investment and learn the language.

Totally anecdotal but my mum was very upset years ago in Llandudno when some women in a shop who were speaking English suddenly stopped, glared at her, and switched to Welsh. I'm not quite sure why they were punishing her for centuries of cultural imperialism

Oh for goodness sake, this doesn't happen. The only time they might do it is if they were talking about their boyfriends or something and didn't want people to understand them. Why do people perpetuate this nonsense?

I've been in the Welshest parts of Wales and have only once heard people in a cafe speaking Welsh to each other and they spoke English to us (with a light Merseyside accent).

It's hardly like I'm applying to run the storytelling tent in English at a Welsh language event, or to sell English language books.

I really have to question if someone selling burgers, coffee, pot plants or novelty wellies (it's none of those, but you get the point) and their mastery of the Welsh language has any real impact on the event as a whole? I'm happy to translate my signage - and in almost all cases my customers could just point at what they want and hand over the money anyway.

I ought to note that I go out of my way to source the raw materials for the items I sell from within Wales, and pay a premium to do so...

@Puzzledandpissedoff

"Menter Caerdydd ... says that their aim is to promote and expand the use of the Welsh language on a community basis in Cardiff "ensuring that the language becomes a central part of life in Cardiff and that the responsibility for its future is shared by every citizen"

Like all organisations their aims are their own affair, but how exactly is it their place to dictate what "every citizen" should be responsible for - especially if they don't share the aims?"

Well, as you say, it's an aim isn't it. They want everyone to feel responsible for securing the language's future. They don't suggest anywhere that they're going to force them to be responsible - and nor could they!

Drabarni Did you already come across this recent initiative to revive a language called Welsh Kale? Is it the same one as the one you're searching for?

www.travellerstimes.org.uk/news/2019/06/heritage-fund-keeping-alive-welsh-romany-language-future-generations

But the entire point of the event is to "promote and support the use of Welsh as a community Language."

Expecting customers to silently point at items isn't really achieving that aim is it? Whereas stall holders who can converse with their customers in Welsh are.

What an absolute shit shower.

YANBU

OP you are ridiculous. Learn the language or don't complain. Native Welsh speakers are much more comfortable conversing in welsh; what with it being their mother tongue. Surely this is something to be protected? Thanks to these measures the language is flourishing where it had been eradicated in some areas.
And as for the discrimination you claim to be subjected to, I honestly think you are exaggerating. My husband doesn't speak Welsh and has never experienced anything like it.

Flax

My studies identified the origins of Cale coming from Europe, whereas The English Romany has its origins from India and various areas travelled over the past 1500 years.
Although originally from the same area the Rom and Dom took different routes, hence differences in the language.
I'm sure I read that cale origins were Finnish.

Um, when I spoke about the Maori - I was quite specific I was talking about the Maori language, nothing else. I got that. But thought the reasons underlying the gradual loss of it were different. And I appreciate the correction of the plural (not at all sarcastic there, honestly, I am appreciative!)

As I said, I only have the perspective of some quite unpleasantly racist individuals to go on... their reasons are as those you listed with added twattishness!

The only time they might do it is if they were talking about their boyfriends or something and didn't want people to understand them. Why do people perpetuate this nonsense? In my case because a) it is true and b) I understood what they were saying! It isn't always nonsense! Which is why I don't always dismiss other people's experience.

Oh for goodness sake, this doesn't happen. The only time they might do it is if they were talking about their boyfriends or something and didn't want people to understand them. Why do people perpetuate this nonsense?

Indeed, if any switching happens it’s just as likely to be from Welsh to English as people are made to feel they’re being rude for speaking their own language in their own country.

OP. Menter Iaith events exist for the express purpose of promoting the use of welsh! Of course stall holders are expected to have conversational level welsh at least as the ENTIRE POINT is opportunities to speak the language. The only way a language lives is if it’s given the opportunity to be used. That’s not discriminatory that’s just common sense. You’d be more than welcome at them to immerse your self into the language

Jamie

Many thanks, no idea how I missed this as have email newsletter.
That's my afternoon sorted.

I must leave one last comment due to my derailment Sorry, OP.
Please just learn the language it will help your business and help to preserve the language.
It's a huge problem if everyone uses English and not the language of the country.
I would love to move to Wales, whenever I visit it's like going home.

Ohhhhhh but you have to understand English stuff is all vile and uncouth and 70sesque but celtic nationalism is real romantic and poetic and not at all fueled by annoying north americans claiming 'heritage'.

No, there were some fairly similar reasons behind the not so gradual loss of the Maori language. (Remember, colonisation really got it's skates on in Aotearoa after the signing of Te Tiriti o Waitangi in 1840 - so only 180 years ago. . .)

One of the things I left out was that Maori were also 'discouraged' from speaking their language, particularly in school, with physical chastisement being common. Some of their family's would actively support this, thinking that the way for their tamariki to prosper, was to learn and 'think' and 'be' more English.

No worries about pointing out the pluralisation of Maori, it's a very common error, even in NZ, thanks for taking it in the spirit it was intended.

Anyways, not taking over a thread about the Welsh to talk about the Maori - I was just struck by the similarities in the journey to preserve the taonga (treasure) of their unique and beautiful languages. And wanted to give appreciation to the Welsh for showing the way. . .

(And if anyone could tell me how to put a macron over a vowel in windows, I'd be forever appreciative!

I was mucking around trying different spellings, in case something came up!

I'm not sure how far off the ground the scheme has got. I'm crossing my fingers for you, but it looks like it might still be in development.

My studies identified the origins of Cale coming from Europe, whereas The English Romany has its origins from India and various areas travelled over the past 1500 years.
Yes but Cale is almost indistinguishable from English Romany. To get to anywhere in the British Isles the Romany would have to travel through Europe, previously having taking centuries of migration within the European continent, and then over the English channel. This is why the vast majority of Romany are still to be found in the South of England. With hardly any in Scotland and none, or a tiny proportion of English origin?, in Ireland.

Although originally from the same area the Rom and Dom took different routes, hence differences in the language.
I'm sure I read that cale origins were Finnish.
Interesting but i think most would have migrated via England. Simply because it was the easiest route.

Ohhhhhh but you have to understand English stuff is all vile and uncouth and 70sesque but celtic nationalism is real romantic and poetic and not at all fueled by annoying north americans claiming 'heritage'.

But there are organisations that likewise exist to promote the English language. Like the English Speaking Union. It would be just as odd to turn up to one of their debates and insist being expected to speak English was discriminatory.

mbosnz

I'd say try holding down alt and typing 0257 with the number pad, but alt codes don't seem to work on MN.

As I always say on these threads, 'the english' have not 'persecuted' wales since the middle ages ffs and the welsh took as much part in the british empire as the english. People just perpetuate this nonsense without asking whats behind it. Some greedy water company taking the piss and some nonsense about the WI deciding to use english centuries ago basically, as well as various education acts making children's education in wales in mandatory, taught in English.
Take those chips off your shoulder and give us some peace.

Menter Caerdydd ... don't suggest anywhere that they're going to force them to be responsible (for preserving the language) - and nor could they!

Absolutely, Welshwabbit, and it's probably just as well