AIBU to think these Welsh language requirements are ridiculous (and bordering on discrimination?)

[DimDimDiolch]

Context: I run a micro business in urban South Wales, where I rarely hear Welsh spoken, and many Welsh born-and-bred people don't speak a word of Welsh. I lived my whole life in England (no Welsh lessons at school - or anywhere else!) until about 18 months ago. I've picked up the odd bit of Welsh here and there (diolch, dim, croeso, nos da, bara, araf - that sort of thing) but I'm far from fluent. My business isn't yet big enough to employ anyone else.

My business is the sort of business where you attend events, pay for a pitch and sell products to the general public.

I've now been denied pitches at a couple of events purely on the grounds that I don't speak Welsh, even though literally everyone locally speaks English (except those who only speak Polish or Urdu...). AIBU to think it's a matter of anti-English sentiment, bordering on discrimination, that I'm experiencing? It all feels a bit 'jobs for the boys' to me, when my Welsh speaking ability has nothing to do with the products I sell.

@Cohle The English Speaking Union is not about promoting English. It is about promoting listening and speaking skills.

And there are no organisations promoting the speaking of English, as it is not necessary.

I know plenty of people from South Wales who speak Welsh and I normally hear it least once when I’m out and about. People who don’t speak Welsh but live in the area often claim people don’t speak it. Just because you don’t move in those circles or pay attention to it doesn’t mean those people don’t exist.

Welsh speakers in Wales deserve a platform for their language just as much as English speakers. It’s not discrimination. My grandparents were physically punished for speaking Welsh in school- even though they couldn’t actually speak English before going to school...THAT IS WHAT TRUE DISCRIMINATION LOOKS LIKE.

If you don’t like the culture of our country then no one is forcing you to stay.

@karencantobe The charity commission website lists the ESU's aim as "the promotion of good communication in the English language".

Yes good communication. It is not about promoting the speaking of English. But listening and speaking skills in English. Look at their website.

Oh OP. You’re being ridiculous now and making yourself look pretty daft in the process.

Of course a burger seller with a mastery of Welsh will add something to an event aimed at promoting the use of the Welsh Language. They will be able to converse in the language!

An English speaker selling a product sourced in Wales may be supporting the local economy but not the language. That is the point, not what’s being sold.

If you’re that keen to have a stall at these and similar events (there are more - be warned!) then you’re going to have to get learning the language. You never know, you might like it!

Ohhhhhh but you have to understand English stuff is all vile and uncouth and 70sesque but celtic nationalism is real romantic and poetic and not at all fueled by annoying north americans claiming 'heritage'.

There is a lot of truth in this 'Celt' romaticsing and many of those North Americans eventually find that their Welsh, Scottish or Irish coal mining or mill labouring salt of the earth oppressed ancestors were actually English. I've seen this happen in genealogy groups on more than one occasion. One poster steadfastly refused to believe it, even when faced with all the evidence by other group members and when it was pointed out that the surnames were obviously regional to a specific part of England, they claimed that their ancestors had been 'forced' to Anglicise their names, all of them, every single branch of the family.

Oh like fuck are English people discriminated against in Cardiff 😂 I’m from Cardiff and have English parents.

OP, Maybe learn a few more phrases and stick on your application that you can speak basic Welsh. Then just make sure you welcome people with a “bore/prynhawn da” and try your best. They really aren’t asking for much- just for you to make an effort like you would in any nation with more than one language.

Yes good communication. It is not about promoting the speaking of English. But listening and speaking skills in English. Look at their website.

I have looked at their website thanks, I used to work for them in my youth

There's no point derailing the thread with this argument, if you want to think the "English Speaking Union" don't promote English then more power to you.

I'm far from home, but I'm hearing all this in a welsh accent, even those of you who are English, and despite not speaking with a welsh accent mtself.

I miss it so much!

What a pathetic thread designed purely to get people to slag off the Welsh language. A major drip feed to admit the organization the OP was criticizing is an organization specifically set up to promote the Welsh language and this is likely to be the 1 big event they arrange each year to celebrate the Welsh language. I live in Cardiff and regularly hear Welsh being spoken when walking through the town. There are so many events and festivals in and around Cardiff where the OP would be more than welcome. Though with that attitude I am not sure I would want to come across them!

I don't care that the Welsh Government actively promote Welsh.
I admit though I don't see the point of actively keeping a language alive. I am very against children and others being forbidden to speak their native language. But apart from nationalism, I don't see the point of artificially promoting attempts to get people to speak a language their ancestors did.

The only people I really feel for are those in S Wales, over 50ish, for whom every dual language road sign is confusing and every dual language leaflet a waste of paper and money.

I have a friend who was born, bred and has always lived in Wales, but had no idea what Nadolig Llawen meant.

I’m just surmising here, but I wonder if, to some people who grow up in Wales and are only exposed to English from a very young age, they are taught and/or it becomes second nature that all signs, papers etc. have a half that they read and a half that they just routinely ignore. When people move there or visit from England, it’s something completely different from what they’re used to, so some will take at least a passing interest.

It’s not the best analogy, but when you go clothes shopping for yourself, you’ll routinely see ‘womenswear’ and ‘menswear’ sections in shops and instinctively ignore the one that isn’t relevant to you. However, if you came from a small remote culture where males and females wore exactly the same clothes, I’m guessing that you’d go and look through both sections, out of pure fascination.

Can you not use a 'Welsh - English' translator app on your phone?
As long as you can say Hello, Please and thank you, then you shouldn't be banned from attending.

The problem with that is that translator apps are designed to aid basic communication and can be invaluable if you’re trying to talk to somebody in, say, Romania, when neither of you knows a word of each other’s language.

However, the Welsh speaker will almost certainly also speak perfect English, so it would be absurd introducing a phone app as a ‘bridge’ to translate between you when they’re already fully able to accommodate your language needs and communicate without it. This just means that they end up speaking English anyway, at an event in their own Welsh-speaking community that is specifically designed to promote and celebrate the use of the Welsh language. You must see how they’d justifiably resent that.

So is it Menter? I totally understand their stance. They are inclusive to English parents me, but their whole ethos is on the Welsh language. Of course they can specify this of their suppliers. As can the Urdd, tafwyl or eisteddfod events.

The only people I really feel for are those in S Wales, over 50ish, for whom every dual language road sign is confusing and every dual language leaflet a waste of paper and money.

But the road signs and leaflets don't know in advance who is going to be reading them, so they have to cater for all. The very nature of most road signs is that they will have some info on there that's relevant to your journey, so you look out for it and follow it, and some info that isn't relevant to your journey or circumstances, so you ignore it. Most major roundabouts will have prominent signs directing you to two, three or four places you aren't going to, as well as the one that is the right place for your journey.

When I'm driving in the car, I'm vaguely aware of height restriction signs on bridges, but I don't take any notice of them and they don't confuse me at all; but to drivers of high-sided lorries, the information could prove very useful indeed.

There are plenty of institutions, such as universities and banks, in Wales which will ask if you have a language preference and send personalised communications to you in only the language of your choice. Equally, if you're keen to immerse yourself in and try to learn Welsh but not yet confident enough to be thrown in at the deep end, you can request bilingual communications.

If an event is specifically designed, set up and advertised as a vehicle for enabling and promoting the use of the Welsh language, it must be a place where Welsh speakers can be confident in being able to use their own preferred language without having to keep switching to English to accommodate blank-looking non-Welsh speakers, or just defaulting to English, which completely defeats the object.

At present, I think many Welsh speakers must feel uneasy in certain scenarios, in their own country, and feel the need to probe carefully when initiating conversations as to whether they'll be able to use their preferred language or have to switch so as to accommodate somebody who can't speak it. They greet somebody in Welsh, the person looks blank or falteringly says that they don't speak Welsh, they switch to English and everybody feels awkward.

It must be like a Muslim/Jew/vegan going to an eating establishment with a huge sign proclaiming 'Halal/Kosher/Vegan Restaurant' but still knowing that they will have to ask about every single dish to check if it's suitable for them - and finding that 80% of them aren't.

Imagine going in to a Chinese takeaway in England and instinctively feeling awkward ordering in English, without checking first - and then finding that there's a 4 in 5 chance that the person serving only speaks Chinese. You'd be annoyed and probably start muttering about 'do they want the business or not?'. Yes, there are Chinese restaurants in this country employing skilled chefs/workers who speak no or very limited English, but they never serve at the counter or answer the phone getting infuriated at an English person in England wanting to order a meal in English.

The only people I really feel for are those in S Wales, over 50ish, for whom every dual language road sign is confusing and every dual language leaflet a waste of paper and money.

You just don't read the Welsh. It's not complicated. Plus if you live here long enough you start picking up the Welsh on road signs.

I'm happy to translate my signage - and in almost all cases my customers could just point at what they want and hand over the money anyway.

You've jumped the shark now.

Why would you want to risk immortalising yourself in the local eye as the stallholder at a specifically Welsh-language event who understood so little Welsh that customers had to communicate with them by pointing?

I wonder if, to some people who grow up in Wales and are only exposed to English from a very young age, they are taught and/or it becomes second nature that all signs, papers etc. have a half that they read and a half that they just routinely ignore

But everyone is exposed to Welsh, you have to do Welsh GCSE.

Plus if you live here long enough you start picking up the Welsh on road signs

Yes. Although last year in North Wales I did struggle with a car park machine in Welsh! If there was an English/Saesneg button on there, I couldn't find it!

The only people I really feel for are those in S Wales, over 50ish, for whom every dual language road sign is confusing and every dual language leaflet a waste of paper and money.

Doesn't seem to bother my 60+ parents. Both born in Wales but neither have lived here all their lives.

It's really not difficult.

DimDimDiolch you user name should be DdimYnGwrando.

If there is an event promoting Welsh as a living language and the organisers want all stall holders to be able to converse with attendees in Welsh then that's their prerogative. It's not discrimination.

Moving to another country and complaining that the locals want to promote local businesses in an event specifically aiming at promoting the national language is lunacy at best.

I don't speak fluent Welsh, but at these events my children and husband converse entirely in Welsh knowing that everyone is there for that purpose...including the people trying to make money from us! You'd happily take the money off these customers whilst at the same time rubbishing the purpose of their event. Privileged entitlement if I ever heard it!

I've no idea why some English people have such a chip on their shoulder about the Welsh...Owain Glyndwr was a long time ago. Get over it!

The argument that you (or more usually someone you know) heard people switch from English to Welsh when they saw you doesn’t stand up to common sense. It betrays a basic misunderstanding about the use of Welsh. Welsh is the first language of some people - most in some areas. If those people speak to each other they would not be speaking English as Welsh is their language. It isn’t a party trick, it’s the way they communicate.

I wonder if, to some people who grow up in Wales and are only exposed to English from a very young age, they are taught and/or it becomes second nature that all signs, papers etc. have a half that they read and a half that they just routinely ignore

But everyone is exposed to Welsh, you have to do Welsh GCSE.

Oh, I'm not talking about the majority of people, but there's a minority of very insular people (often brought up by stubborn, cynical and/or narrow-minded parents - you find their type everywhere, not just in Wales) who drift through life without ever learning or caring about anything they don't see as important to them (and them alone). I would fully expect most people to want to become familiar with their own culture and associated language(s), but you only have to look at some of the British ex-pats in Spain who refuse to learn Spanish and take offence at Spanish people in Spain daring to speak Spanish to them, or even in their earshot.

I agree Card what may have occurred is the shopper heard an English word or phrase followed by welsh.

Some words do jot translate and so the English is used. It doesn't mean they are speaking in English.