Male privilege: How can I explain to a man why some women are afraid of men?

[IvyBush123]

A make friend of mine talked about male privilege a few months ago or I was trying to explain it to him - but I don’t think he got what I was trying to say.
He was walking down the street in the evening, it was getting dark and there was nobody else in the street but a unaccompanied women who hurried and gave him fearful looks.
My friend is a harmless person, very nice, would never do anything bad to a woman. He was hurt by the fact she seemed to fear him.

I tried to explain to him that most men aren’t rapist but some are and women like to be on the safe side. Don’t think he got what I was trying to say.

I was actually happy a man decided to join the conversation.

He wasn't joining in the conversation though was he? He just wanted to tell the silly laydeez that our lived experiences were wrong because he, a man, knew better and to flounce off in a huff after painting himself as the victim....

Most men I know understand this. Well my DP and male family members have acknowledged Male privilege when weve spoke about it.

It started off as a discussion about what we learnt growing up how to keep ourselves safe. Majority of the males said the usual, dark alleys at night might mean mugging, nights out being ruined because group of lads wanting to fight them etc and admitted they never really thought what a woman might have to do to keep herself safe.

No dark alleys, be aware of that van/car that has just pulled up in front of you, to politely decline the creep who wont leave you alone because you don't want to anger him, car keys in between your fingers, looking too slutty etc, getting in to cabs alone, meeting up with a date and making sure a friend knows where you are, slowing down so they can overtake you. Theres loads more and they can change as you get older.

It sounds like I'm painting women hysterical and fearful of every man (and I'm sure someone will come along and say men have all them fears too) but it is thoughts that go through most women's head one point or another. And for good reason.

My paragraphs seemed to have fucked off

I’d think he was utterly thick to not have some empathy around this. Really? Plus totally agree with what peopleversus said - this really isn’t what male privilege is about.

Is told women are afraid.

Asks for evidence.

Is given evidence.

Disputes evidence with... nothing.

Fucks off.

What an excellent advert for mankind. Fortunately most of us know a few men who aren't arseholes.

@DareDevil223 I think he was hurt by the fact that people who don’t know him are fearful of him (like my friend btw) but unless he doesn’t enter the discussion again we will never know.

He is the living embodiment of why the term “mansplaining” came into being

I am trying to see this from the perspective of a man. It must suck if everybody sees you as a possible thug and possible rapist... but then there are so many thugs and rapists.

Then he should be angry with the men who are giving his class a bad name not the women who are fearful because of their bad, scary, sometimes lifechanging experiences with those men.

If your mate wants women to stop being afraid, men like him need to start telling other men not to be violent. Vocally challenging mysoginistic behaviour. Stepping in when men get handsy in thepub/club/public transport. Starting campaigns. Getting funding. Going into schools.

If men gave a shit about women getting killed week after week, they would be far more effective than any woman-led campaign. But they don't, because... Meh. Women innit?

Boohoo to his hurty-hurt feelings.

Why do these men always just get their poor little feelings hurt by women not pandering, trusting, liking them enough, instead of being pissed off with the men that have made the world this way?
It boggles my mind it really does, it's not strange women's job to make your friend feel ok, safe, happy, like a good person.
We've got enough to do trying not to get raped and or murdered thanks.

I can count on one hand the amount of times a stranger man has stepped in to help me with harassment. One of them is my friend to this day!

Maybe he could do that. Or just be glad he isn't the one dealing with the fear.

Tell him to do his own fucking research

Christ, not only do you have to spoon feed him obvious facts you have to not make him feel bad about himself

Nothing more fragile than the male ego

I wouldn’t bother. It’s not my job to salve the hurt feelings of a man who can’t see why a female stranger might be nervous around him.

There’s plenty of stats about it if he cared enough to look. But he won’t, because ultimately he prefers being offended than to feel slightly uncomfortable about his male privilege.

What should happen, is he says ‘huh, I’d never considered that before’ and then he changes his behaviour to ensure if he’s the lone man on a dark street with a lone woman he’s not on the same side as her, he’s not walking really fast, he’s minimising her fear because he can sympathise if not empathise.

But he won’t even do that because his hurt feelings are worth more to him than a lifetimes worth of collective experience from women.

@IvyBush123

‘Not all men are like that!’

The logic you’re displaying is the same as those men that say that they’re wary of women because of the #MeToo movement. If you don’t touch women when they don’t want to be touched (at a bare minimum) then what is the problem?

Don’t know why you’re being so accommodating of his feelings (actually I do) when he can’t even be arsed to make the bare minimum of effort based on what you’ve already told him.

Groggylegs you have hit the nail on the head.
Men need to call out other men's poor behaviour.
I've never seen that happen.
And certainly never seen any education at all for- boys this xyz is not acceptable. Don't do it.
Ever.

Why are the men not educating the next generation? As they know exactly what the boy teenagers are capable of.

He is a big man with a buzz cut and lots of muscles, very nice but looks a bit rough. How can I explain he looks far more dangerous than he is?

It’s got nothing to do with how he looks. If I’m followed in the dark by any bloke, my heart beats faster. Steer away from judgement.

Typical of the privilege to take it personally. If he’s decent and not an idiot, he should be able to understand.

@ActualHornist It might not be my job to make men feel okay - but I don’t see him as a man. I see him as a friend of ours, who happens to be male, know what I mean? He is a friend of mine, good friend of dh‘s.

I just don’t want my loved ones (or the friends of my loved ones or the friends of the friends of my loved ones) to be sad... especially since he is a nice guy who would never hurt a woman... and I do think that he probably would say something if he saw a woman getting hurt... and I think he had a hard life, grew up poor, not a good education, had an injury. I think he might have ptsd. I do not know if he has the diagnosis but I diagnosed him with it because I know other people with ptsd and he has some of the same traits. I am not a professional or qualified to diagnose people though. So I think he might need somebody acknowledging his feelings. Is the kind of guy who typically doesn’t discuss his feeling, so that I think that might have really hurt him.

Frankly, I thought it was a bit rich that he came here with the sole intention of challenging women. There was never any attempt to engage. And to be so flippant about a subject which is so difficult for women, especially for those of us whose worst fears have been realised. For the record, no man I don't know gets within three feet of me. Ever. I'm not debating this. I can't. My refusal of your interest is not an invitation to negotiate; it's an invitation to fuck off. And I don't give a stuff about your protected characteristics. There are still far too many of you who don't give a damn about mine.

I would tell him this:

Imagine you live in a city where every single man is gay, bigger and stronger than you. Imagine that, since you're about 12, every other day a man you don't know on the street makes "pwoarrr" noises at you, rubs his crotch against you in the bus or pinches your arse, and if you complain he tells you that come on, don't be like that, you wanted it.If challenged, they will come close to you and intimidate you with their size and strength. Imagine that every now and then, random men will tell muyou how much they'd like to fuck you in the arse, or for you to suck their cocks. Imagine that one day you get drunk and wake up to a man anally raping him. When you go to the police, the first thing they ask you is what you were wearing, and wehether you did not think that such a nice, tight shirt was provocative. perhaps you wanted it to happen? How many sexual partners have you had in the past? So many? Well perhaps it was not rape then, perhaps you wanted it. After all, you were drunk. If you report the rapist, other people in the street will be on their side and will call you a bitch and a slut and tell you that you're ruining the other guy's life, and that obviously you were looking for it.

Then tell him this is how women feel every day. And ask him whetehr, in these circumstances, wouldn't he cross the road and glance nervously at any man he crossed in a dark alley.

I am trying to see this from the perspective of a man. It must suck if everybody sees you as a possible thug and possible rapist... but then there are so many thugs and rapists.

first of all why are you trying to see it from the perspective of a man? the world sees it from the perspective of a man already. It isn't as if you are doing a daring, new thing.

Second, seriously! it sucks for men that women see them as thugs and rapists so women should do something to make them feel better??? How about men make it so women don't feel this. how about men stop other men being thugs and rapists so women don't feel all men are thugs and rapists.

Seriously OP? Think about what you are saying

I give this analogy to guys. Outing but hey.

Imagine if from the age of about 11 or 12, you had a load of middle aged, tall, fat, large ugly women winking at you, watching you in a sleazy way, and making comments about your body. Imagine sometimes these women drove in white vans and shouted predatory comments at you.

Imagine sometimes when you talked at work, they watched your crotch and belittled your contributions.

Imagine if they found you alone at night, they might just grab you, wrestle you to the ground, and sit on your face. And some people will tell you it's your fault because you were wearing shorts. You are extremely unlikely to get justice. Imagine if you called a cab to take you home and it's driven by one of these women, who constantly eyes you in the rearview mirror or makes sleazy comments.

Imagine if on a night out, these women constantly approached you, and if you said you weren't interested, they called you a stuck up little bitch.

It's not enough to say 'women' because they'd say they would enjoy it. But if you specify ugly older women, they get it. Especially fat tall women because of the sizes/strength element.

Doesn't he read/watch the news? I was searching for something completely different and got this news article so even if you're not looking you come across experiences of women being hurt. https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/steven-murphy-waunarlwydd-swansea-jailed-17546891?utmsource=sharebar&utmmmedium=email&utmcampaign=sharebar

Oh please! Unless he has serious intelligence issues HE KNOWS!

He just doesn’t LIKE that this woman DARED to make it so obvious to him.

“Tell him to imagine being in a prison with no guards and 1000 men. All the men are bigger and stronger than him. They are all friendly and safe to be around except one who wants to rape and kill him.

Ask him if he'd be on his guard or totally relaxed?” Excellent but unnecessary analogy

He needs reminding that a woman who doesn’t know him, who he is clearly stronger than, in a vulnerable situation can’t KNOW that he is a nice guy??

Tell him the vast majority of assaults are never reported - that if they were the police & courts would be massively overwhelmed considering few girls and women living a life normally go a month without something happening.

@streetwisehercules what a load of tripe! You clearly don’t understand

Privilege
Women’s safety issues
Women’s experiences - NO WAY do NONE of the women you know fear walking alone at night!
The REALITY of Male behaviour in this country now!

Your post is SO offensive as to be actually disgusting.

I personally no longer believe that the majority of men are good decent men, I think it’s far closer to 50/50 at best. That’s not been my experience at all, and it’s not been the experience of most of my women friends either.

I can count on one hand the men I know are genuinely decent, good men in this respect. And 2 of them it’s likely because they are closely related to women who’ve experienced serious abuse. I’ve had many discussions with the others and spent time enough with them to know they think at least one of the following if not several -

They don’t always think no means no
They think girls and women have a responsibility not to “tempt” men
That use of alcohol/drugs excuses abusive behaviour
That in certain circumstances women/girls “owe” them sex or sexual acts
They think once sex has stated consent cannot be withdrawn
That certain behaviour by girls/women negates consent

Not an exhaustive list of the crap I’ve heard said by men on the issue of consent by the way.

Very very few women I’ve discussed this with haven’t said that from a young age (I’m talking later stages of primary school) they had unwanted attention from males escalating in high school years to actual assaults on numerous occasions.

Men in my experience largely discount “minor” assaults as unimportant - bra strap snapping, skirt lifting, hair grabbing, bum pinching and similar ARE assaults and they DO make their victims more and more wary as they go through life.

It’s bloody constant!

“has to do with the way he chooses to dress and his hair cut but also with the fact he is big and strong.”

He CHOOSES to look like he does - have you asked him why? Because this would seem the perfect opportunity

My brother is tall (6.5’), fit and strong and has a typically short men’s haircut, he is harmless, a police officer but he is very much aware that in civvies he can appear intimidating and behaves accordingly. He understands why women and girls and even some other men will be wary of him. It’s hardly rocket science!!

“and I don’t think I have the right to tell hi: to dress differently.” You know what? Why the hell not?! Girls & women get that shit ALL the time, might give him SOME insight (though I doubt it)

“I have a son and a daughter. I don’t like the idea of my son being considered a likely threat on the basis of his protected characteristics and I am not raising my daughter to be fearful or unsure of herself in the world.”

Are you teaching them BOTH about true consent? Because the study already mentioned and an illuminating discussion now deleted from Reddit showed a significant proportion of men had raped without understanding they had raped.

Are you teaching your daughter how to stay as safe as possible? Are you teaching her she does not have to placate men?

Because giving her a FALSE lack of fear would really do her a disservice.

How old are they?

Where are the lies hercules? Because if anything the stats are a massive UNDER estimate of what happens to girls and women daily because the vast majority of assaults aren’t reported! There are many many reasons for this - not least that most of us (girls and women) KNOW there’s no point! Victims are rarely taken seriously, it’s hard to prove - even when there are injuries - and the additional damage to OUR reputations and harassment & possibly further assaults we’re likely to receive as a result just makes it not worth the bloody bother most of the time!

Ffs even IF you get the police to take it seriously and there’s evidence and cps agrees to prosecute and the guy is convicted, which is INCREDIBLY rare, the sentencing is pathetic!

I raised on another similar thread that TRULY decent men challenge the non-decent men about misogyny, rape myths, generally poor behaviour to others they don’t know.

A supposedly male poster on that thread (can’t remember username) took the stance this was an unreasonable expectation as it would put that guy at risk!

Well if men aren’t dangerous where’s the risk?

He implied I was expecting a “decent” man to start a physical or at least aggressive interference which I had not even thought let alone said!

But I’m afraid I have to come back to the likely fact ops friend is being massively disingenuous.

Men will never understand really how scared women can be because they are not women, although they can empathise if they are sensitive enough.

Maybe ask him how he would feel if he was walking at night along a quiet road and he saw a man approaching him carrying a gun which may or may not be loaded, and just hanging in their hand.

There may be danger or there may not but he has to decide at that moment what he has to do to keep safe.