Privilege. How can it be talked about and acknowledged in today's society

[chomalungma]

Just a follow up from the recent threads. Male privilege. White privilege. It exists. But some people think it is a poor concept as they don't seem privileged. This thread is just to carry on the conversation.

How about removing economic privilege so that we no longer have poor anyone?

That’s something we call ‘communism’. Perhaps a brief holiday to sunny Pyongyang might be in order, so that you can try before you buy?

Some countries have policies that do seem to reduce the gap between rich and poor. They seem to be more equal countries in other ways as well.

Doesn't mean we can't work towards it does it?

Is removing male privilege or white privilege going to make much difference to people's lives? How much difference would lifting people out of poverty make though?

chomalungma

Some countries have policies that do seem to reduce the gap between rich and poor.

Inequality is irrelevant - reducing absolute levels of poverty is what matters.

You might have missed this little thing called a General Election last month. The socialist party lost in a landslide, going down to its worst defeat since 1935. How about we respect the electorate’s wishes?

Knife crime is derived from middle class white people taking cocaine.

Perhaps, and they are culpable to the extent they fuel the drugs trade, but this has nothing to do with policy on stop and search.

@Oakenbeach

I think you're thinking about institutional racism too narrowly. If knife crime is disproportionately carried out by young black men, then why is that? I'm sure its multi-factoral but, to pick a few examples, if there are economic factors, education level factors, a sense of disenfranchisement, previous negative experiences with law enforcement, etc., etc. then institutional racism plays a massive part in driving the trend in the first place.

@BananaTaffy

The reasons for knife crime by young black men are varied, complex, and have their roots deep in history; it would require an academic thesis to explore properly. I certainly don’t believe that black youth are somehow intrinsically more criminal than their non-black counterparts.

However, I’d need some convincing to believe that the UK institutions of today are a significant factor in driving it.

Inequality is irrelevant - reducing absolute levels of poverty is what matters.

I always think it’s disingenuous when a politician says something like “X% of children live in poverty”, as they must know that the average listener will equate that with some form of absolute measure of poverty when in actual fact its nothing of the sort. Rather it’s a relative poverty measure (60% of median income). I would doubtless fall below that threshold if compared with certain groups, but it would be highly misleading to say I was in poverty!

It's has gone from a decent concept to just a way for the idealogues on the modern left to try and silence people in the public debate. Used in such a way it is very two dimensional and relies and an instinctive judgement of anyone based on their gender and skin colour.

The poverty line in the UK for a single parent with two children is under £195 a week, which needs to pay for housing. Of the three million children living in poverty about half have a household income of about £124 a week.

It isn't silencing people in debate, the right wingers simply use that to stop any critique of their points.

It is accurate to critique LF for example because he hasn't experienced racism in the UK .

However, I’d need some convincing to believe that the UK institutions of today are a significant factor in driving it.
In terms of privilege, it doesn't matter if the cause is current or historical, as long as its effects continue to be felt today.

@Cendrillonsings

Is there nothing before North Korea? I don't think they've removed economic privilege either!

What were the wishes of the general electorate, and how are they being disrespected?

To illustrate the point further, and to borrow an easily-understood example from the US, abolishing slavery didn't suddenly mean that black and white Americans were on even footing.

Notwithstanding ongoing racist attitudes, the fact is that for centuries, only white americans were able to generate, accumulate and pass on wealth to the next generation. That continues to contribute to inequality today.

Thus, part of the privilege of white americans (again, as a group and not on an individual level) is greater inherited wealth.

It's quite interesting - but not surprising - that some of the reaction to the idea of 'white' privilege from some white people is the same as the reaction of some men to the idea of female privilege.

Not all men.
Sexism doesn't exist
We have female equality now
It's not something men have seen so it's not a big issue.
Why are people getting upset about this when there are bigger issues about sexism out there?

I guess that it's a natural reaction for some people when this idea is brought up.

I also wonder how many people who are the first to say that male privilege exists and can give plenty of examples can get very defensive when it comes to white privilege.

In terms of privilege, it doesn't matter if the cause is current or historical, as long as its effects continue to be felt today.

I was referring to institutional racism not white privilege.

And I mean UK institutions are they are currently,
not how they may have contributed to racial discrimination historically.

You are the colour you are. It's nothing to be ashamed or proud of, it just is.
I suspect in a few hundred years we will all be a brown colour and there will be no blue eyed red heads left as they are recessive genes and people will find something else to focus on.

@2Rebecca they aren't the only red head genes on this planet.

Also only someone who hasn't suffered racism or seen their child suffer it would write a post like yours.

Then I really don't understand the overall point that you're trying to make, Oakenbeach

You think that white privilege may not be a useful concept because you think racial profiling by the police is justified because black people in the UK commit certain times at a higher rate, which is likely at least in part because they don't benefit from white privilege.

My parents and I were showing my children around the area where they grew up - where they lived as children, the schools they went to, as part of a homework project. This was in the East End of London. We were approached by a group of Asian youths and told, in no uncertain terms, to "go home" and "to go back where we came from"! Quite ironic really as we were quite literally where we came from. Were we experiencing white privilege then, or were we experiencing exactly what you describe "a stranger being rude to us based on our race"? My mum is also of Jewish decent, though white - how does that fit into white privilege?

It doesn't but you won't get a reply here because the narrative is that ALL white people in ALL situations will always have white privilege.

A white poverty stricken male in a majority BAME neighbourhood in Bradford or Leicester will always have white privilege, or at least according to middle academics he will. It wouldn't matter if he was the poorest person in town surrounded by BAME multi millionaires, BAME police chiefs and BAME senior managers. He will always have white skin. Colonialism will always be the fault of his white working class forefathers, it doesn't matter if non of them took part or benefited from it, they had white skin something something and structures, blah blah, are always set up in his favour. Any complaint or disagreement means he obviously has white fragility.

Its simple really, when erm explained properly it something .

Sigh. Let's try posting it again.

""The principal misconception of privilege is that it applies exclusively on, or scales evenly and perfectly down to, an individual level, and so that the existence of individuals from a class considered privileged (e.g. white males) within a class considered underprivileged (e.g. working classpoor) or the reverse scenario disproves the concept. This isn't the case at all. "Privilege" in the social justice sense applies only to classes of people, as far as it could be quantified it is only a statisticalaverage. Onaverage, those in an ethnic majority experience privilege, and on average those in minority groups experience oppression."

yeah and the "go home " story in east London never happened. Its one of those things people on MN make up.

Oh and the white poverty stricken Male in a BAME community, with BAME police chiefs etc is a strawman.

yeah and the "go home " story in east London never happened. Its one of those things people on MN make up.

I don't really care if you believe me or not, but it did happen.