Privilege. How can it be talked about and acknowledged in today's society

[chomalungma]

Just a follow up from the recent threads. Male privilege. White privilege. It exists. But some people think it is a poor concept as they don't seem privileged. This thread is just to carry on the conversation.

People have repeatedly made the point that those whon lack economic privilege/class privilege cannot benefit from white privilege, which of course they can.

I don't think people have made that point. I think people have made the point that for many people in Britain today, any theoretical benefits they derive from white privilege pale in comparison to the many other disadvantages that they might have.

People have made that point.

Of course the benefits from white privilege can be less than any other disadvantages, but no one claimed that wasn't the case.

So... can someone help me with whether a person who was born white but self identifies as black has white privilege or not?

Or is this a question that is just too difficult to answer?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transracial_(identity)

I don't believe you have any extra privilege being white or male.

The thing about white privilege, male privilege etc is that they aren't things you can change. They sit alongside, but are different from privileges like economic or class ones.

I do think its sad that people, usually white people, see being told they have white privilege as an accusation and get defensive. Of course being white does not negate other disadvantages you may have, but it doesn't add an extra one.

In the US, if you look at death row cases, the vast majority of prisoners on death row are black. White prisoners are less likely to be sentenced to death for the same crime. That is white privilege at its best.

White/male privilege (and others for that matter) bring unconscious bias to the table. It's the people who are obviously not male/ white getting fewer job interivews/opportunities. It's also a difference in how safe people feel. It's in "silly examples" like women being assumed to be the PA or asked to make coffee in meetings. It's black men being more likely to be stopped and searched.

And surely you have to be blind not to notice that this is endemic? What's that statistic about more men called John running FTSE 100 companies than women? And of course, we're not seeing any particularly meaningful number of POC in these positions either.

I used to live in SW london. Local Waitrose was staffed by largely majority BAME individuals. But the managers were all white? Is that just coincidence? I don't think so.

White privilege doesn't mean you've had it easy but has many people have pointed out, being white doesn't make your life harder. You may well be discriminated against because of your physical/mental health, because of your sexuality, because of your sex, because of your education, because of your upbringing. But you won't be discriminated against because you're white.

[oh, and I think there've been a few examples of white people going into largely BAME communities and experiencing hostility as an example of why white privilege doesn't exist. Those are, frankly, irrelevant. In those situation, sure, being white is working against you. But white privilege refers to your experience in society overall. If we said it doesn't exist because in 0.01% of the time in 0.01% of situations it doesn't, we are deluding ourselves."

Sorry - death row example is white privilege "at its best" in the context of the best example of white privilege. Realised that might read a bit oddly!!!

Privilege is like money. Some people have it, some people don't. I can't see how pointing it out achieves anything. Telling a middle class, white British male (WBM) that he has "male privilege" is like telling a rich man that he "doesn't have to worry about money". It's a redundant statement.

There is nothing a WBM can do about being a WBM.

@lilmisstoldyouso what the WBM can do is not dismiss other people who aren't like him when they point out they are on the receiving end of discrimination.

Yup, what ColaFreezePop said.

Put it this way: let's say the UK government decided it wanted to create a special committee to consider how to end day to day race/sex discrimination and advise on associated policy. Would it likely be a good idea if that committee was made up exclusively of white men? If not, why not?

What can a man do about sexism?
What can a white person do about racism?
Shrug their shoulders and say they can't help the way they are and sexism and racism is just the way it is. Deny that racism and sexism exists or minimise it when someone says they have experienced it. Say but whatabout and start talking about something else

The very least they can do is acknowledge it. And listen.

@lilmisstoldyouso
Yes there are many things the WBM can do.

• Be mindful of and develop awareness of the advantages life has given him as a white person
• Be an ally to those without these advantages.
• Be aware of barriers faced by other people and be a force for removing those barriers where he has the power to do so eg in his work, or if he's a famous actor in the media.
• Help male other WBM or white people be aware of this issue by highlighting the barriers

Why is it apparently now OK to criticise people for possessing immutable physical characteristics than they did not choose and cannot change?

In the old days, before the rise of “progressivism”, that kind of attitude would rightly have been considered rank bigotry. Now it’s what passes for common sense on the left.

No one is being criticised for their characteristics. People are facing criticism for not recognising the advantages they have in certain areas and also face criticism when they dismiss the very real experiences of others.

death row example is white privilege "at its best"

And also utterly irrelevant to any discussion of 'privilege' in the context of the UK.

Shoehorning US political issues into a UK context is a large part of the problem.

The whole debate is somewhat silly. Whenever you are in any situation there are somepeople who have an easier ride for what ever reason. They still have a right to an opinion and "privilege" does not need to be pointed out. I might not value that opinion for many reasons, thats life. Society is very mixed

I remember a great scene from Australia the movie. Aboriginal people were barred from a bar. Because that was the way it is. Hugh Jackman stood up for his friend and demanded he be let in.

The line was. Just because that's the way it is does not mean that is the way it should be.

People cannot help being born white, male or privileged. As his mother You would hope to bring up your son to have awareness of the situation of others less fortunate but would you want his life to be blighted by people who think he cannot be a caring empathetic person? We start of woth liberalism and socialism and if you are not careful you are doing the same as the people you criticise, in reverse

No one is being criticised for their characteristics.

What utter bullshit. “White” and “male” are now used as epithets and insults by the left despite being immutable characteristics.

Guess what? People with those characteristics don’t owe you anything, just the same as any other human being with any other characteristics doesn’t have to justify their existence to you.

Shoehorning US political issues into a UK context is a large part of the problem.

So white privilege may exist in the US, but not in the lovely, perfect UK? Of course it's relevant to show how societies, like the UK and US, make things more difficult for people who aren't white. It's a statistic I happen to know. Others on this thread have pointed out disproportionate number of BAME people in UK jails. It's' all part of the same thing.

Why is it apparently now OK to criticise people for possessing immutable physical characteristics than they did not choose and cannot change?

And THIS just sums up the issue. White people aren't being criticised for being white. They're being criticised for not understanding or acknowledging that being white means there are certain things they will never experience. And for refusing to accept that people who aren't white DO experience those things.

Ok so there is no white privilege.
There is no male privilege.
Minds not quite made up over class privilege.

What about able bodied privilege?
Do you deny that one too?

oxfordcat

Why should a WBM care about those issues?

A rich person isn't expected to care about poor people.

It's a little bit delusional to expect a WBM to act like some sort of social messiah just because YOU think they have an advantage over others.

Anyway, what is this amazing privilege WBM are supposed to have that others don't?

And THIS just sums up the issue. White people aren't being criticised for being white. They're being criticised for not understanding or acknowledging that being white means there are certain things they will never experience.

Are there any other groups with innate characteristics from whom you demand displays of ideological “understanding” and “acknowledging”, or is it just this one?

And what precisely gives you the right to make those demands of any group of people?

What advantages do you think a man has over a woman?
What disadvantages do you think women face?
Put yourself in someone else's shoes.

Why should people think of those who are disadvantaged?
I suppose it depends on what kind of society you want to live in.