Privilege. How can it be talked about and acknowledged in today's society

[chomalungma]

Just a follow up from the recent threads. Male privilege. White privilege. It exists. But some people think it is a poor concept as they don't seem privileged. This thread is just to carry on the conversation.

*Are there any other groups with innate characteristics from whom you demand displays of ideological “understanding” and “acknowledging”, or is it just this one?

And what precisely gives you the right to make those demands of any group of people?*

Well in the context of privilege of this sort, probably not. But we've discussed how other types of privilege should be acknowledged.

As for any group of people acknowledging their reality - BAME people acknowledge that having a skin colour that isn't white causes problems. But I guess this doesn't count?

The problem is that you're defensive. You see criticism and fault and blame. When really, it's not about that. And yes, I think we all have the right to make demands because that very white privilege is, by its existence, disadvantaging others. Every job interview that goes to the white candidate by default. Every woman who is patronised or passed over for promotion. Every black person who has people nervously putting their bags out of reach. All those people and more need acknowledgement that the unconscious bias that comes from white privilege is a problem and causes them problems.

Well in the context of privilege of this sort, probably not.

I didn’t think so.

But that's the whole point of this conversation. White privilege. Male privilege. They're unique. But very real. Very prevalent. So there aren't other examples.

Able bodied privilege I mentioned it earlier. It's another example, but one that doesn't get used a lot, even though it's the easiest to explain and possibly more palatable to a vast majority of people(not all ofc).

It also can't be as easily dismissed and denied with "homeless white man".

There are plenty of privileges out there. People with them should be aware of them and acknowledge them. I can certainly think of plenty of advantages I have in life. I am sure other people on here can think of characteristics they have no control over that give them a an advantage.

@chomalungma does acknowledging those advantages take anything away from your other struggles? Does it take away from what you achieved? Does it mean you HAVE to apologise,eat humble pie, sell all your possessions and make up for those advantages?

No, it just means you know it exists, maybe make you appreciate what you had more and put some thought into how others can have it too.

Some people don't see it that way, hence why they struggle with accepting even the idea that privilege of any type exists. No one handed them anything on a plate after all.

I found John Scalzi's idea of playing life at different difficulty settings was interesting as an alternative way of talking about privilege;

whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

I find it an interesting way of presenting the idea although I think he's wrong not to take into account the way that parental wealth affects opportunities - he explains this in a follow up but I think I disagree; whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/17/lowest-difficulty-setting-follow-up/

No, it just means you know it exists, maybe make you appreciate what you had more and put some thought into how others can have it too

I know how much easier life has been for me - especially in some areas - compared to others. Parents who cared about me, a good school which was selective. White, middle class. Certainly a help in today's world.

I can see why some people want to keep those advantages for themselves. I wonder how many people who have certain advantages and want to keep them for themselves also have major disadvantages that they may have no idea they even have.

This all reminds me of the sketch with John Cleese and The Two Ronnie's (I know my place).

If we agree that white privilege, male privilege, able bodied privilege, class privilege, economic privilege exist it's not difficult to work out the permutations is it? Does it not then become meaningless?

I'm white, female and disabled - do I have privilege? Does my white privilege counteract the disadvantages of being female and disabled? What should I be doing as a white person to check my privilege? But does that also mean that men and able bodied people (irrespective of sex and race) should check their privilege?

Using the job interview scenario mentioned above - I'm white so shouldn't automatically get the job (fair enough) but then I'm female and disabled so do I get extra points awarded? Would you have a hierarchy of privilege for situations like this so you can work out just how disadvantaged each candidate is?

I'm white, female and disabled - do I have privilege? Does my white privilege counteract the disadvantages of being female and disabled? What should I be doing as a white person to check my privilege? But does that also mean that men and able bodied people (irrespective of sex and race) should check their privilege?

Using the job interview scenario mentioned above - I'm white so shouldn't automatically get the job (fair enough) but then I'm female and disabled so do I get extra points awarded? Would you have a hierarchy of privilege for situations like this so you can work out just how disadvantaged each candidate is?

I think you’ve summed up the absurdity of such a scoring system very elegantly. It’s astounding to me that self-professed egalitarians are so willing to embrace a system that requires the creation and enforcement of a rigid social hierarchy - a hierarchy of victimhood that is nothing more than the mirror image of what it claims to wish to replace.

I believe white privilege exists and male privilege exists and class and able-bodism of course they do, generally all societies are racist, sexist and all the other -ists. But unless someone is being racist why the need to point that out?

I only have come across the term “white privilege” in articles and social media posts lambasting me a middle class white person for well being me - I can’t change my skin colour and changing class is near impossible, however I will change my behaviour if it is explained to me how it causes offence and changing it does not clash with my ethical boundaries (for example I was asked to not offer to shake hands with colleagues and clients as it can cause offence to some men who follow Islam, I have not done this as I believe that women and men are equal, if the hand is declined I do not press the issue and still offer a verbal greeting).

If my behaviour causes offence I would rather I was told about the behaviour rather than blaming it on my skin colour. It’s like not calling children naughty when they draw on the walls, call the behaviour out instead. If you tell people “they need to check their privilege” most people’s first response is to say”I’m not privileged” and then if you continue to stereotype them as such they (read me) will just decided well that’s it I’ve got white skin so I must be a racist so I’ll be a bloody racist then (like the child always being called naughty ends up acting out)

Would you have a hierarchy of privilege for situations like this so you can work out just how disadvantaged each candidate is

You'd look at ways to make your system fairer.

Is your workplace accessible?
Where are you advertising?
How do you screen CVs?
What do you do to promote your workplace to more diverse people?

Some people on here are very reluctant to make things more equal for others.

There's got to be a reason for that.

The Rational Wiki page on privilege is quite good. Below is the 'Misconceptions' section

"The principal misconception of privilege is that it applies exclusively on, or scales evenly and perfectly down to, an individual level, and so that the existence of individuals from a class considered privileged (e.g. white males) within a class considered underprivileged (e.g. working classpoor) or the reverse scenario disproves the concept. This isn't the case at all. "Privilege" in the social justice sense applies only to classes of people, as far as it could be quantified it is only a statistical average.On average, those in an ethnic majority experience privilege, andon averagethose in minority groups experience oppression. For example, the fact thatBarack Obamawas thePresident of the United States doesn't outright disprove anything to do with white privilege or racism within the United States. Barack Obama's presidency does not alter the vast and ever-expanding statistical evidence for the existence of white privilege.

The second major misconception is that privilege is a quantifiable set of experiences that add up. It is instead aqualitativething relating to experiences of a specific kind. For instance, the particular "male privilege" of not feeling sexual discrimination at work, or being pressured into raising children exclusively, isn't offset by economic or wealth class — it might apply with slight qualitative differences across class boundaries, but overall it is not a number that is then mitigated by other factors.

The third major misconception is that privilege is entirely one way. The fact that there are a few "Female Privileges", such as not being forced to register for the draft or not being expected to pay for dates, does not mean that gender privileges don't exist at all. Nor does it mean that they are as valuable as their counterparts.

Furthermore, the misconception thatintersectionalfactors can "cancel out" privilege of one sort or another ("I don't have white privilege because I'm poor" or "I don't have male privilege because I'm not white") disregards that life would probably be different if that privileged intersection were to go away or stop being rewarded by society. Not all privileged groups benefit equally, depending on different social intersections, but benefit still exists in some way over some other demographic that doesn't enjoy the same invisible allowances. Basically, there is no linear scale of privilege you can move up and down on; instead, there are different types of privilege."

@Bananataffy that is very useful. I think there's enough information on here that the ideas are understandable. Maybe people use the whataboutism to avoid acknowledging it, others pretend that it's something fixed that that's offensive to them to point out.
Genuinely some people don't want equality.

Is your workplace accessible?
Where are you advertising?
How do you screen CVs?
What do you do to promote your workplace to more diverse people?

So how do you apply all of these in order to reduce the effect of the various privileges?

Take screening the CVS - what criteria would you apply?

Making the workplace more diverse - again, what criteria?

Are you going to end up offering interviews to every BAME candidate, every woman and every person with a disability that applies? If so, you aren't really screening at all are you, you're just excluding all white, able bodied men.

@chomalungma I’m not in charge of hiring for my organisation but I can happily say that it has an excellent track record for recruiting BAME people, there are some elements of racism surrounding progression but they have been called out and a task force is working on it, it’s discussed regularly in the professional press and hopefully progress is being made. Male privilege is still a big issue and is finally beginning to be challenged with more access to flexible working and better maternity and carers leave. Same for disability, although this probably needs the most work. I’m actively involved in the campaign for better rights for disability and women but I’ve managed to do this shout calling my male able bodied colleagues “privileged” because although they enjoy advantages I don’t that’s not their fault, I need to change the female disabled lot for the better not make theirs worse. If they act in a sexist ableist manner I call them out for what they are, I don’t attack random white male able bodied colleagues for just being themselves - after all there just trying to do their job to the best of their ability.

BananaTaffy

Based on your post then, just how useful is the concept of privilege?

Take the 1st paragraph - men as a class have privilege, poor, working class don't. Now, we aren't looking at it at an individual level - the poor, working class is a large number of people. The number of men in that group will also be large so if you introduce policies to counteract male privilege you will be adversely affecting a large number of people who are already disadvantaged.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras

If a man is otherwise so underprivileged that he receives no material benefit from the existence of male privilege, then eliminating male privilege would have no affect on them.

If a man is generally underprivileged but does benefit to an extent from male privilege over otherwise similarly underprivileged women, then yes, he'd feel the impact were male privilege eliminated (and women would receive the corresponding benefit).

So the policy decision is whether you try and make things equal for both sexes, acknowledging that it will cause some men to lose one of the few benefits they currently have, or uphold the status quo of penalizing women for being women.

Are you going to end up offering interviews to every BAME candidate, every woman and every person with a disability that applies? If so, you aren't really screening at all are you, you're just excluding all white, able bodied men

If you are recruiting for people and you find out that the people applying aren't really reflective of the community, or then you find out that the people getting offered jobs are very different to those people who even get to the interview stage, then maybe a company should look harder at its recruitment practices and other factors.

It's just nonsense, made up by people who have the luxury of contemplation.

Privilege in 2020 UK is a term used for people to hide behind because they believe someone is better off, has better chances or a better life.
If course there is some "true" privilege like being born into a rich family. But in the majority of cases the term is used as a justification whatever someone feels inferior.

Ah and there is the real issue people have with privilege.

The fear that acknowledging it (by themselves or others/society) automatically means getting right taken away from them or making life worse for them.

Offering a young woman of child bearing age a job or promotion based solely on merits and not how her reproduction plans might affect the company takes nothing away from men. It doesn't make things worse for men.

Putting adaptions in so that a disabled person can access a facility doesn't make things worse for able people.

And so on..

The fear that acknowledging it (by themselves or others/society) automatically means getting right taken away from them or making life worse for them

I do wonder what the arguments would have been like if social media had been around at the times of many of the changes in society over the centuries.

Certainly many of the arguments on here have been made by people in the past who think that they will lose out if equality comes in. If changes happen.

Making things fairer and more equal is an uphill challenge,.

Privilege assume everyone of that 'type' is the same and that is what I object to. People are too unique for that