Privilege. How can it be talked about and acknowledged in today's society

[chomalungma]

Just a follow up from the recent threads. Male privilege. White privilege. It exists. But some people think it is a poor concept as they don't seem privileged. This thread is just to carry on the conversation.

Privilege assume everyone of that 'type' is the same and that is what I object to

No, it doesn't.

What do you think 'white privilege' means?

Privilege assume everyone of that 'type' is the same and that is what I object to. People are too unique for that
Can I refer you back to the 'Misconceptions' bit from Rational Wiki that I quoted on the last page?

People simply dont or wont understand its relative nature.

And I do live on a northen estate, but the refugees living next door are in a worse starting position. Not hard to understand

Offering a young woman of child bearing age a job or promotion based solely on merits and not how her reproduction plans might affect the company takes nothing away from men. It doesn't make things worse for men.

Putting adaptions in so that a disabled person can access a facility doesn't make things worse for able people.

But these are individuals and people upthread have been saying that this isn't something to be applied on an individual basis but at a class level, do you would have to apply it wider than the individual wouldn't you?

Ah and there is the real issue people have with privilege.

The fear that acknowledging it (by themselves or others/society) automatically means getting right taken away from them or making life worse for them

Urgh, this arrogant presumption that you already perfectly understand the opinions and motivations of those who disagree with you and can therefore dismiss them out of hand really must be one of the most unpleasant aspects of "woke" culture.

Are you really so lacking in self-awareness that you're unable to hear how condescending you sound?

@NotDavidTennant

We only have to go back a page to read, from another poster:

Privilege in 2020 UK is a term used for people to hide behind because they believe someone is better off, has better chances or a better life.If course there is some "true" privilege like being born into a rich family. But in the majority of cases the term is used as a justification whatever someone feels inferior.

People on either side of this argument in this thread have presumed the opinions or motivations of the other. It is not a feature of 'woke culture'.

(Or rather, is not exclusive to, 'woke culture')

@NotDavidTennant I was replying after two posters literally said that. I didn't just pull it out of thin air. Some people do see any acknowledgement or discussion about privilege an attack to the rights of those privileged, an attempt to make life worse for those privileged.

I've never been called woke or condescending before though, so well done for being my first

The assuming that they spoke for me and my neighbours put me and the vast majority of my neighbours off the bigmouth right wing brexiteer types who try to prey on us around here.

@NotDavidTennant

What issue do you have with trying to improve the life chances of people where societal attitudes can be geared against them?

I work for a charity which helps people who face discrimination and barriers. I know the issues they face and believe you me, there are many people on here and in the community who have no idea of the 'privilege' they have at the moment in their lives. They are unaware. Because that's what privilege is. Being unaware of it.

And they are blindly ignoring the changes society needs to make.

What issue do you have with trying to improve the life chances of people where societal attitudes can be geared against them?

None whatsoever.

It's your (and others) presumption that if I disagree with you then I don't want to improve the life chances of people who need it, or that I don't want a level playing field, or that I'm against inequality, that I find so irksome.

Anyway, I have to clock off now so apols for not being able to reply to other posters who took time to respond to my earlier (slightly rude*) post.

*But I do stand by my opinion that it is condescending to think that people who don't agree with the concept of privilege just don't understand and are acting out of a kind of self-interested fear.

s your (and others) presumption that if I disagree with you then I don't want to improve the life chances of people who need it, or that I don't want a level playing field, or that I'm against inequality, that I find so irksome

If you think there's inequality, want to improve the life chances of others and want a level playing field, then what do you think the issues are that make people's life chances more difficult and make the playing field less level?

What kind of things make some people have more of a chance than others?

I was told a few times yesterday on this thread that I didn’t understand what “white privilege” was, and was misunderstanding it. I don’t think i was, but rather was trying to make the point it was a flawed and divisive concept but, anyway, my understanding is a follows:

The definition of “white privilege” (as held by those supporting the concept on the thread) is that it is a characteristic of a White British person (in the UK) as a consequence of him or her not being subject to discrimination specifically directed against a BAME person.... full stop.

By that tight definition of “white privilege”, then yes white privilege exists, as a White British person cannot by definition directly experience racial discrimination against a BAME person. It’s a statement of the obvious!

However, whether white privilege is a helpful, useful and constructive concept, is another matter entirely!

Here is an example of white privilege if there ever was one.

Don't think Piers is going to be reprimanded. Bit like saying the N word. Just because HE thinks it's ok. Doesn't make it so. And yes, I've complained to OFCOM.

Link here metro.co.uk/2020/01/21/piers-morgan-horrifies-viewers-mocks-chinese-language-rant-peter-phillips-milk-ad-12092997/?fbclid=IwAR3ZYeEk_O8Up61cshEbvaz9d__qnggjFV8airlW-ymqx5VrjHmSulNEpgI

Yes, @Oakenbeach, so long as you believe institutional racism exists in the UK, then he existence of white privilege is a statement of the obvious.

However, all the separate ways in which racial bias affects BAME people on a day to day basis are likely not self-evident to white people, because they wont have directly experienced it.

So recognizing your privilege is often just acknowledging that, if you've never been negatively impacted (and may have actually been positively impacted) by pervasive biases that make another group's life more difficult, in certain respects, than your own, perhaps your opinion on the existence, limits, frequency or harmfullness of those biases is not fully informed.

so long as you believe institutional racism exists in the UK,

Any racial discrimination though, not just institutional.

The thing with institutional racism is that public institutions have bent over backwards to remove racist discrimination, and are having to defend themselves against “racist” actions that are arguably not racist.

Take stop and search... I understand this is a complex and emotive topic, but if violent knife crime is predominantly carried out by young black men, it would be odd for police not to be mindful of this when seeking to keep out streets safe, and its not surprising that more black youths are stopped as a result - it isn’t “institutional racism”.

Insisting that police stop and search in proportion to ethic make-up of population is tokenism that makes the appearance of racial fairness more important than tackling violent knife crime. Also, taking this to its logical conclusion, you could argue there’s a sexist and ageist element to this... if you stop young men, why not stop a proportionate number of old ladies!

I don't think people are insisting that it's proportional. However i would argue that there should be a valid reason for stop and search rather than he is black and male so we will stop him without reasonable grounds to suspect someone.

I'm of the opinion that Stop and Search rules have benefited from Laws introduced to tackle institutional racism, probably not perfect but much better. Police have to inform why they are undertaking the activity. There is a much easier complaints system surrounding it. Noone is saying in predominantly black areas noone should be stopped and searched, but it has been a problem in predominantly white areas that black people have been stopped disproportionately.

The quota thing is a bit of a fallacy really a bit like some people believe poor black kids are taking the place of white middle class kids because they are told they have to have a certain proportion of each ethnicity. Which is just not true.

Knife crime is derived from middle class white people taking cocaine.

Knife crime is derived from middle class white people taking cocaine.

Is it? Round here it's older teenagers mugging younger teenagers, at knife point and in the late afternoon after school.

How is that related to white people taking cocaine?

people who screech about privilege are usually pretty privileged themselves, thus rendering the argument obsolete.

I think it's interesting how we seem to be only discussing removing privilege such that people who share other characteristics are all on the same level - so white poor by removing male privilege all of the white poor are equal, middle class remove white privilege and everyone in the middle class is equal etc etc but no.one seems to be talking about bigger impacts on privilege namely economic. How about removing economic privilege so that we no longer have poor anyone?