Privilege. How can it be talked about and acknowledged in today's society

[chomalungma]

Just a follow up from the recent threads. Male privilege. White privilege. It exists. But some people think it is a poor concept as they don't seem privileged. This thread is just to carry on the conversation.

I think the GE would need it's own 10 threads to even start to analyse! WP wasn't a defining feature of debates, the lies and fear over Brexit were very influential. Brexit itself has many threads and is very much more complicated than a proxy war between left-libs and conservatives- look at the divisions it caused in the Tory party. But I do think Brexit showed how disadvantaged people can be lied to and manipulated. Divide and conquer.

Brexit itself has many threads and is very much more complicated than a proxy war between left-libs and conservatives- look at the divisions it caused in the Tory party.

Yes - those MPs who leaned left-liberal / Remain either left or were expelled from the party. You’re making my point for me

Robert Ford and Matthew Goodwin are academics who analyse the Brexit as culture war phenomenon very well and largely predicted it.

@Cendrillionsings

I don't think I have! We'll not agree on Brexit, and your links sound interesting but hardly definitive. Where's the hard right's role in this? And the lies and propaganda? Your explanation seen to position Labour... led by a socialist - i.e. someone loudly devoted to enforcing economic and other equalities" and left-liberals too closely together. But, I think we should stick to the thread's topic, and agree to disagree!

@CendrillonSings so with extremely similar policies Labour won a much larger shrare of the vote in 2017. You are being revisionist to suit your own narrative.

@Endofthedays not at all, people have repeatedly discussed intersectionality here and how privileges and disadvantages overlap but also been very specific how white privilege applies to different groups.

In essence you are using a simplistic argument about economic and class privilege in an attempt to dismiss the fact that white privilege exists.

@NotDavidTennant, I don't think its as easy as that. People have repeatedly made the point that those whon lack economic privilege/class privilege cannot benefit from white privilege, which of course they can. This is the simplistic argument.

so with extremely similar policies

Nope. The 2019 manifesto was much more extreme than 2017’s. But I’m sure it was all the same to you.

The 2019 manifesto contained many of the same policies and was vastly similar.

The swing in former Labour areas was down to the policy on Brexit as well as Corbyn's personal unpopularity, which again wasn't to do with the issues you identify.

Craven revisionsim.

‘@Endofthedays not at all, people have repeatedly discussed intersectionality here and how privileges and disadvantages overlap but also been very specific how white privilege applies to different groups.

In essence you are using a simplistic argument about economic and class privilege in an attempt to dismiss the fact that white privilege exists.‘

I haven’t said any of this. I understand what intersectionality is. I understand what people mean by white privilege. I understand that it is a different concept to economic and class privilege.

I have merely pointed out that in everyday speech, privilege usually refers to class and economic privilege.

Critical race theory comes from postmodernism. Postmodernism attempts to obscure meanings by taking a term used in everyday speech and using it to mean something totally different.

Any attempt to then clarify what is being intended by a word is then responded to with cries of reductive, oversimplified etc.

It isn’t that what white privilege describes is hard to understand. It is that the language used is designed to obscure meaning.

If you look at the dictionary definition of privilege, the first example given contrasts it with rights. The two are mutually exclusive.

And yet the description of white privilege includes rights!

The swing in former Labour areas was down to the policy on Brexit

Ah, so those voters must have swung away from Labour because Corbyn’s Brexit policy wasn’t left-liberal enough, right?

Corbyn's personal unpopularity, which again wasn't to do with the issues you identify.

Keep telling yourself that. He’s a far left socialist and outside his own cult, the public couldn’t stand his ideology.

No they swung from Labour because of the second referendum on Brexit promise, rather than getting Brexit done. It was the defining factor.

@Endofthedays actually the dictionary definition mentions a right or immunity granted as a particular benefit.

So yes the langauge is correct. People are granted immunity from discrimination or barriers that are determined by race/economic status/gender etc.

In every day speech people SOME people may conflate economic and white privilege but many do not. For example the debate regarding LF was specifically regarding his white privilege.

No, it mentions a special right.

I was using rights to refer to human rights. I apologise for any confusion caused.

And human rights are not special rights. To not be illegally detained by the police is not a special right and therefore cannot be a privilege.

If you want to define whiteness as people having ‘special rights’ in opposition to people holding ‘human rights’ I think that would be a very clear and helpful way of viewing the world. Because we could then say quite clearly and morally that no such special rights should ever exist.

Absolutely many people understand white privilege. Given that it is an academic concept that many people have studied and been assessed on, it would be amazing if nobody understood it. But many other people have never heard of it. And many other people have heard of it but find it very confusing. The assumption is that the confused people are responsible for their own confusion. I think the confusion is inherent in white privilege as a concept.

It also mentions immunity, but of course, unless we are using the full OED definition, which cites the different ways in which the term can be used then discussing dictionary definitions is not accurate either.

This is where your problem arises, you have attempted to take a specific part of the dictionary definition to discredit the argument for white privilege. Yet another part which discusses immunity definitely fits, as do other parts of the broader detinition.

Also your use of the term right ignores the fact that in the full definition it is also described as "a right or an advantage". So yes there are advantages conferred on white people in the UK that others do not have, because of the colour of their skin. Your also attempt to confuse the term "right " with legal human right, when it too has further usage beyond this.

White privilege as a concept is perfectly valid, exists and people benefit from it. Your argument is essentially that because people misunderstand what it means it doesn't exist.

See your use of a definition of privilege ( the special right is part of the definition of legal privilege)

‘People are granted immunity from discrimination or barriers that are determined by race/economic status/gender etc. ‘

And again this is a conflation of different concepts. White privilege and male privilege are very similar concepts to each other. They are not remotely similar to economic privilege.

The main problem of being poor is not that other people treat you badly or make assumptions about you. The main problem of being poor is that you are poor. You can’t afford to eat properly, adequately house yourself, clothe yourself and heat your home.

Being poor is a state of material reality. The disadvantages of it are inherent in being poor and nobody should be poor.

That is not at all the same thing as being a man or woman, which are neutral things to be were it not for sexism.

I’ve already apologised for using rights to mean human rights.

I think now I have clarified that we should be able to move on with the discussion?

The whole dictionary definition should be used. We agree on that.

I have never said that white privilege does not exist. I absolutely believe that it does exist.

What I am arguing is that white privilege as a concept is a poor way of explaining a genuine issue to people.

Privilege as a concept stretches further than just people treating you badly, in terms of immunity it can be that as a man your are immune from beinh fearful for your safety at certain points, or for being accused or wearing the wrong clothing having been attacked or from people doubting your ability to do a job you are qualified for because of your gender.

Whilst being poor has material reality it also has many other factors that act as barriers or challenges to ones life that people who are not poor are immune from having to consider or to work out how to over come.

There are definitely issues with economic privilege that go beyond being materially poor.

I think its a fine way of explaining it to people but the issue is that the way it is used by certain groups ( and a lot of this is on the right.side of the debate) to create division.

Yes, there are issues of social exclusion as well as being poor.

But I am talking about the differences between poverty and gender, not the similarities.

I think part of it starts with what we tell our children. I have a 2 year old son. We are a white, middle class family. He is half Irish (on DH’s side)
I would like to ensure he knows about white, male, middle class privilege whilst also knowing about his Irish heritage and Anglo-Irish history. But I have no idea how or when to start!

‘Privilege as a concept stretches further than just people treating you badly.’

Well yes, it is stretched to include all of basic human rights, and unjustly received advantages and benefits unconnected to justice.

Hence why people have used privilege to mean both your parent taking you to a library and not being murdered by the state.

@Endofthedays you did say that they were not remotely similar. There are similarities.

Yes, there are similar elements.

But I would still consider it important that poverty by definition refers to being in a state of suffering. There isn’t a different way that society could treat the poor that would make poverty a good thing.

And the opposite is true for being rich. It any possible society, being rich is a privilege. It is intrinsic to wealth.

Being male could stop being a position of privilege.

Creek is rising - interesting

I also had an oxbridge interview. I come from a working class background. I didn't get in.

My first interview was brutal - literal questions like ' do you think it's worth someone like you getting a university education?' - I shit you not

I met the boy who went in before me on the train home - his interview had been mostly about rugby apparently

That said my had a friend who worked at one of the colleges and she looked the interview notes up - rugby boy was rejected straight off. They had 6 places to give from my interview cohort (14 of us) - I placed 7.

Some comfort but still think the interviewer was a shithead!!!

Hearhooves - sorry to hear that happened to you and I can 100% relate

I was once surrounded by Asian kids and spat on - in London!!! Literally just walking past, never seen them before etc.

Not ok but only happened once and I mostly felt perplexed - like wow if you don't like whites people everyday must be a struggle as there are loads of us here.

I mostly felt they perhaps wrongly thought it levelled something?

Or they were just racist tits - don't know but for me it was once not every day