Privilege. How can it be talked about and acknowledged in today's society

[chomalungma]

Just a follow up from the recent threads. Male privilege. White privilege. It exists. But some people think it is a poor concept as they don't seem privileged. This thread is just to carry on the conversation.

I myself am privileged in every respect (save being female) and happy to acknowledge it and listen so I’m not saying the below to be defensive.

I think the concept of privilege is important but the communication is flawed. Yes, someone white on the council estate has privilege over someone black on the council estate because their skin colour will never have disadvantaged them. That’s helpful to discuss because the other forms of privilege are equivalent (in this hypothetical example).

The problem is that people often talk about privilege without reference to the other forms of privilege and disadvantage (eg class and wealth). Some black people are overall more privileged than some white people, and of course it annoys people when disadvantaged who are people are suggested to have privilege over wealthy and educated BME people.

If you come from a privileged family, but have ASD then invisible barriers pop up all over the place, depriving you of opportunities that you might be qualified for because you can't do small talk and you don't understand the vibe. You are always an outsider despite looking like an insider, making you doubly alienated.

But if you come from a privileged family you will automatically have access to private healthcare, and associated HCP because it can be paid for. Families with privilege often have higher expectations and push more for the rights of their child/family member with ASD than families with no privilege. A privileged family may themselves have high attainment in education, and be more able to assist a ASD family member.

In short - having ASD in a privileged family is better that having a similar level of ASD in a non-privileged family.

Funky

I agree with what you're saying... There's definatey prejudice against many white groups (hello Brexit!) but I would just say.. There are many cases of racism that affect non-whites only. Such as people crossing over the road when my DH walks towards them who is a tall black man, or moving away from him on the bus. He works in predominantly white environment and he constantly has to be "spokesperson" for all black people it's exhausting.

On the overall topic... People are unwilling to discuss privilege because it involves an acceptance that we someone have a headstart somehow and many like to believe they have hustled to get where they are. I'm sure you've seen this comic before but it's a good reminder.

This video is also a good reminder www.thesouthafrican.com/videos/watch-brilliant-social-experiment-illustrates-privilege-video/

I’m sure the white homeless man I stopped to talk to earlier would love to acknowledge his privilege, and should definitely do so.

“If you are white and you live in poverty on a run down council estate in the north then the concept that you have privilege is laughable”

Yes if you interpret the phrase to mean a white person who is privileged,

But the phrase has a very precise and narrow meaning: your white skin means you do not experience the racism directed at those with black skin.

A black person can have wealth, education, opportunity. But lacks that specific white privilege.

It isn’t well or widely understood. maybe a new phrase is needed in this country.

I think genuine under privilege is lost in the mire of the silly Top Trumps of who has it worst.

It all seems not only unhelpful but damaging to people's self-esteem to be continually encouraging them to focus on why and to what extent they are a victim.

On a variety of MN threads we will get people arguing over disabilities and who is more entitled to blue badge spaces or extra time in exams or - as in a current thread - why social anxiety entitles someone to be late. (Card carrying member so no lectures thank you on you don't understand^ .)

So does the white homeless man have less privilege than the black or Asian homeless man?

You can't look at a concept like this through an example like that.

I don't understand at a basic level what it is like to grow up black. Just like my dh doesn't understand at a basic level to ge a woman (he's never had a man shove his hand down his shirt) even though he lives with 2 women.

I don’t really understand why it needs to be talked about. Genuinely, I don’t get it. I can see that there are types of privilege obviously, but people are complex and while they might be privileged in one aspect of life, it’s likely that they are either average or disadvantaged in another aspect.

Why is there a need to point the finger at people and tell them that they are luckier than others simply because they’re white/born to parents that could afford them/are a particular sex? What does it actually achieve?

I can’t see it achieving anything, and it’s going to feel insulting to people who may have those perceived privileges, but have had to deal with plenty of the other crap that life can hand out. Especially when the people doing the pointing have their own advantages in life, but are choosing to ignore those and instead are fixated on the fact that they are BME/came from poorer families/are female.

Yes if you interpret the phrase to mean a white person who is privileged,

But the phrase has a very precise and narrow meaning: your white skin means you do not experience the racism directed at those with black skin.

Then don’t call it privilege. Call it something else, or don’t be surprised when people disagree with the use of the word privilege when you’re using it incorrectly.

This is a bit off topic but....Irish BUT well educated? As if it's unusual for an Irish person to be well educated?

Anti-Irish bigotry is rife, often mixed with anti-Catholic bigotry. It is impossible to discuss such things when so many refuse to accept white ethnic minority groups as even being ethnic minority groups even when (as with travellers) they are specifically recognised as such.

BAME and white are not mutually exclusive terms but you'd never believe it if you read most internet discussions about privilege.

I note you don't mention class or wealth privilege
They're the most significant forms.

Not if you are black. This is why these threads never end well because there isn’t a general consensus on what privilege. Being white alone is a huge privilege.

If you forgo race inequalities, then yes, wealth and class would be the next level of privilege.

It isn’t well or widely understood. maybe a new phrase is needed in this country.

Or maybe - because it never really catches on outside of middle-class left-wing circles and the rest of the country has just demonstrated they really couldn’t give a toss by voting in the whitest, male-est, most “privileged” PM imaginable - it’s time to give up on the whole concept?

If you are white and you live in poverty on a run down council estate in the north then the concept that you have privilege is laughable.

Even compared to a black person in the same situation? Even though they may be significantly more likely to be stopped by the Police, or may suffer racism in a thousand other ways? Privilege can be relative.

If you are white and you live in poverty on a run down council estate in the north then the concept that you have privilege is laughable.

Exactly. Which is why any discussion that doesn't start with the most significant forms of privilege, wealth and class, is doomed to annoy.

But your life would still have MORE barriers had you been born Black and living in the above conditions. It doesn't mean you are currently fortunate, lucky or whatever, or discount the hardships in your circumstances. The phrase just acknowledges other barriers you will never have to overcome.

Shay you're missing the point. It's not uncommon for an Irish person to be well-educated. I'm Irish heritage.
But the signs in the UK in the past were no blacks, Irish or dogs. Irish people were and are discriminated against. Sectarianism does exist. I was pointing out the intersection of privilege and disadvantage ie Irish (disadvantaged) well-educated (privileged). I'm unsure how you read the other examples and then your comprehension failed you at that point.

@FunkyPigeonPie

Yes the Irish person in your example is under-privileged and faces unacceptable discrimination, you are absolutely right. But nevertheless there are still barriers they don't face, and will never face, because of the colour of their skin.

I think it's a more important than ever concept. Many believe women's spaces are being eroded (like mixed bathrooms and changing facilities, removing mention of women from menstruation products etc) - it's so important to understand about priviledge in this context.

Many of our wealthiest industries are still predominately male and white -- we need the be challenging this.

And it's not just a middle class term. Black DH grew up in council estate inner city London and I can tell you that him and his friends have very strong views about priviledge and how it affects them. Black males are more likely to be in prison than elite unis. Black men are 26% more likely than white men to be remanded in custody. www.prisonreformtrust.org.uk/WhatWeDo/ProjectsResearch/Race

I've jumped around topics quite a lot there. I'm just trying to say I think it's an important discussion to have!

I got 99 problems but being white isn't one.

You can’t
End of

It ever was. It Ever will be

Oxford take Irish travellers. They will face discrimination because of their names; their accent and where they live.
Travellers and gypsies are the only minority group who have to specify their race if they submit a planning application for a development where they can live. They are uniquely and institutionally disadvantaged in the planning system. No other minority faces it. If you submit a planning application for a caravan site, you need to specify if it's for gypsies/travellers or for a holiday park. Then the local community complain accordingly.
Perhaps you're unaware of that disparity. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

@NailsNeedDoing I see your point but this is the phrase and it's just a case of people misunderstanding it and sometimes will fully not wanting to accept the true meaning. Usually those people are those who feel defensive because they have the privilege in question. So for example, feminism often gets wilfully misunderstood by some men as 'women thinking they're better than men', when of course it's no such thing.

Male privilege. White privilege. It exists. But some people think it is a poor concept as they don't seem privileged.

I think the terms need to exist, if no-one can think of better ones, but there is something inherently problematic about them. "Privileged" normally means someone considertably better off than average. In a country where the average person is whte, logically "white privilege" can't exist, what's meant by the phrase is "absence of black disadvantage", which is too much of mouthful. I think "white priviledge" could only be used without sounding a bit off in a context where the average person is black, and it's better to be white. e.g. in South Africa during apartheid.

The concept itself is not a problem, but how people use it. If it causes people to to think of how they can reduce bias or ways to increase opportunity then it’s good.

If it causes people to blame other people for their own problems or compete as to who is least privileged, maybe not so good. Compared to all the countries in the world, standard of living is UK is on average quite good. Doesn’t mean there isn’t an awful lot of suffering here as in other places, just that on average fewer people are in these terrible situations.

Why is there a need to point the finger at people and tell them that they are luckier than others simply because they’re white/born to parents that could afford them/are a particular sex? What does it actually achieve?

I'm guessing you have lived a relatively privileged existence and that is why you don't want to acknowledge it.

It's not about making people feel bad, it's about acknowledging what is going on in society. There is not a level playing field and we should be trying to giving opportunities to those who need them.

I have a blind friend and the discrimination he faces is terrible. He is currently job hunting and as soon as they see the dark glasses and stick he has the door slammed in his face. As someone who doesn't have the same issues, I don't feel guilty about being able to see but he is definitely disadvantaged because of his disability.