To have confronted a mother smacking her child in public

[Roux95]

I was with OH in a clothes shop this afternoon looking for some bits. It was an extreme rarity for us to be child free so we were enjoying having a wander round without the double buggy!

When looking at some clothes I could hear a hysterical child having a tantrum, a hissing (parent i assume) and the sound of smacking. I looked around the racks I was browsing and sure enough a woman was knelt down at child height, hissing at the toddler to behave, smacked the child on the chest area and then went to smack the child's face but shot her hand down when she clocked that I was watching.

I was angered by what I saw and raised my voice at her to stop hitting the child, i told her we don't do that crap here (she was european - this is possibly not relevant but I know some cultures parent differently) and that her behaviour was disgusting and she should be ashamed and how would she like it if somebody her own size hit her.

This must have shocked the child as they stopped crying and the mother(?) sheepishly put the child into the pram rushed off.

OH was visibly embarrassed at being part of this confrontation but I think I was justified personally. In hindsight I think I could have said all of the above without raising my voice but my maternal instinct kicked in and I was furious for the child.

Was I being unreasonable for interesting? What would you have done?

I'm reall shocked at the number of people on here who think hitting a child is OK. It's assault.

I do understand it. But, you know, there are a few murders where I have understood how they got into that position. It doesn't make it right. But closing yourself down and refusing to empathise, shouting PLAIN WRONG is actually counterproductive imo, if you want to prevent it happening again, rather than indulging in blood sport. Preventing it happening again is great, but if you're only in it for the kill then it won't appeal to you as much.

I'm reall shocked at the number of people on here who think hitting a child is OK. It's assault.

I agree. It is assault. It should be illegal 100%.

Do you empathise with wife beaters too then Audrey?

But closing yourself down and refusing to empathise, shouting PLAIN WRONG is actually counterproductive imo,

I disagree.
And the huge campaign for zero tolerance towards women has had a massive impact.

Zero tolerance towards hitting people is the only sensible way to go- otherwise things become shades of grey- as they were decades ago towards women.
Husbands could beat their wives just a few decades ago- police would turn a blind eye ( often referred to as a "domestic"), courts were not interested unless the violence was severe.

Now we are in a sutuation that does not tolerate " domestic " violence.

That has been born from zero tolerance attitudes.

You can understand the nuances in specific scenarios without tolerating it. I certainly do advocate for zero tolerance of hitting children (and wives / husbands too fwiw). But it doesn't mean that I don't understand how certain situations could happen.

For example, there was a case where a woman murdered her husband and went to prison. I'm sure you saw it on the news recently, that her conviction was then overturned as it turned out he had been coercive abusing her for years. She is now free. If we had adopted a 'zero tolerance' (your definition, where it is black and white, not my definition fwiw), that would not have happened as it would have been "she killed him. Zero tolerance on violence. The end".

It wasn't self defence either, just snapping after years of coercive control and emotional abuse. Awful for everyone of course.

Oh and do I empathise with wife beaters? No, I do not.

However, I appreciate that it is important that we try to understand how it is that someone becomes like that in the first place and how he got away with repeatedly beating his wife in a modern society where there is supposed to be zero tolerance.

Obviously, for some people who abuse their partners or children, the shame society would pour on them if they were discovered and jail time etc is supposed to be the deterrent.

But the problem with relying on deterrents is that they have to commit the crime, (or someone else does), in order for potential perpetrators of the same crime to see how awful it is and be deterred. If we can better understand how it is that people become this way, that can be used to prevent it happening again.

Both are important and obviously nobody wants to see a child or wife abuser having touchy feely therapy sessions without the deterrent, (jail time and society hopefully making them outcasts - certainly true of child abusers, but wife beaters...some sections of society still seems to accept them IME. Violence against women, despite 'zero tolerance' is not deplored in the same way child abuse is. Prisoners don't have to be segregated from other prisoners for their own safety, because they are wife beaters, but child abusers do).

If you find the idea of understanding people who do bad things and trying to understand how these awful things could have happened, distasteful, I don't blame you, but I really hope you don't work in law and order.

I'm stunned at some of these responses. A child was being hit on the chest and face and some of you think that is OK? And that the OP shouldn't have intervened. Really! What if you saw a man hitting a woman on the chest and face. Would that be OK?

Hitting is assault!

I don't agree with smacking at all, but we are not talking about a smack on the hand here.

OP - you were exactly right to intervene.

@messolini9
The child wasn't hit in the face @Roux95
Speculated that she was about to.
I find it hard to trust people who judge others on the colour of their skin accent or country of origin.

@Temp123999 are you also disputing that the child WAS hit in the chest?

Smacking is NOT illegal in this country; it's about to become illegal in Scotland but not in England and Wales. But smacking on the face or chest has always been seen as unacceptable; smacks are meant (not that it's right at all) to be on the hand or behind.

Smacking isn't right. My F used to smack us really hard and my DM does admit this. But she smacked us herself. The result of this meant that we would never have dared to tell her that there was also SA going on in the home.

I get Audrey's viewpoint. Nothing to be gained in pretending this doesn't happen, both inside and outside the home.

Hitting children is more socially acceptable than hitting anyone else... which is why we wouldn't hesitate to condemn the same woman in the shop for hitting the shop assistant. We wouldn't be debating that at all really, would we?

I don't understand why either. Maybe because discipline is a contentious idea and not one size fits all or because some parents think they own their children and can do what they like... my parents used to smack me and, on occasion, I have had to work very hard not to smack mine. There, I've said it! We don't all have the same temperament. It's easier for some people to control themselves than others.

Making it illegal would be a great start.

YANBU, I think you were right to speak up. How could you tell she was European?

Some people think it’s ok to slap a three year old around the face and chest after OP has already the mum slap the child once? So three slaps to a toddler in public?

What the fuck do you think she does when she’s behind closed doors?

It’s attitudes like this that people of my parents generation don’t believe my mum punching me and kicking me 20 times full force in row wasn’t abuse. I deserved it. According to a shit load of people. But I punched my five year old with all might in public would that be ok?

Get a fucking grip! Some man in Tesco snatched a bag of crisps his dd about ten had picked up, he was two metres away from me. I flinched. I was scared, it was right back being a child with a volatile mother who sadistic ally got her kicks watching me in pain.

I can not stand this sort of shit. Plus faux outrage at the racist factor is why Rochdale was ignored. Don’t want to offend people’s own cultures dispite the laws in uk. Being PC is far better than stopping child abuse?

Thinking about it, possibly having someone shout at my F for smacking me too hard as a child might have helped me. Because it might have made me think that the other things he was doing were wrong too.

Because I didn't realise that talking about it might make a difference. So no, the OP was right. Short-term the child might have suffered at home from an angry mother. But it might have opened her eyes to realise that what she was going through wasn't normal. (That was something I never understood.£

Maybe the language the OP used wasn't right, but it wasn't really the point, was it? We all say things that aren't appropriate when we're shocked by something.

I still regret not confronting the woman who slapped her 8/9 year old son with a viciousness I had never since before or since. I’ve seen some awful behaviour from parents of different ethnicities. Race is not an indicator of violence.

I can not stand this sort of shit. Plus faux outrage at the racist factor is why Rochdale was ignored. Don’t want to offend people’s own cultures dispite the laws in uk. Being PC is far better than stopping child abuse?

No but stopping child abuse without being racist would be better than one or the other. Have you considered that not all outrage about racism is automatically "faux". Some people genuinely find racism outrageous, as well as child abuse.

It is lazy and disingenuous to imply otherwise.

It’s not. Embarrass and adult that is capable of hitting a child in the face and that adult will take their new found anger out on the child. That is a beating on top of the usual beatings with no actual solving of the problem. The person shouting that it’s wrong hasn’t actually helped the child they’ve just possibly made the situation worse. If it’s bad enough to shout then maybe call the police.

I don't care if it's illegal or not it's just horrible. I genuinely can't understand why anyone would do that.

Shocked at the seemingly pro smackung comments and votes

The police and SS wouldn't be interested in somebody saying "we don't do that here" however they most definitely would be interested in an adult whacking a toddler on the chest and in the face.

Bizarre that the thread has been side tracked to zone in on a comment made as a slip of the tongue in the heat of the moment.

A child was assaulted for fuck sake.

In this situation a poorly thought out comment is in no way comparable to a small child being beaten and I'm bemused if you think that it is. There are alot of pedantic people on their high horses here.

Social worker here @MyRainbowAndPotOfGold. And yes we'd be interested if the Op had got any useable information full name/licence plate etc. But if the child wasn't marked they'd be very little we'd actually be able to do other than offer parenting advice. But actually the OP's comment could cause conflict if it was reported, if only her and the mother saw what happened it would be very easy for what the Op said to cast doubt on what had actually happened. I've actually had a number of families reported by supposedly well meaning neighbours/members of the public and nothing untoward has been found, it's in fact been highly suspected that the reports were false and racially motivated.

Ask yourselves this. If it upsets you (like me), just to merely witness abuse - how do you think it is to actually experience it? I have experienced severe physical abuse at the hands of my mother.

The law needs to be updated - and sharpish.

If anyone knows how to set up one of those online petitions that force parliament to discuss the issue, I would be very happy to help in any way I can and to endorse it. I just don't know how to do it.

I guess it would mean deciding on what we want the legislation to say, and possibly reference the scottish wording. I'm not sure setting up a petition 'we want to make hitting a child illegal' would cut the mustard. So if any of you have politicians or even political or legal knowledge yourselves, you don't know how many tiny lives and futures could be saved from machiavellian mothers or fathers.

For me - I would like it to be punishable by the same laws that govern assault on an adult. So common assault, grievous bodily harm, actual bodily harm etc. But smacking repeatedly (or once), should at least constitute common assault and be punishable in the same way as it is for assault on adults.