AIBU to consider having one in grammar and one in private?

[Holidayinginmymind]

My DD has gotten into the local(ish) superselective grammar. It is all girls, and we think it is the perfect school for her. She is very bright, competitive and loves a challenge. For us, this school was the perfect choice for her (or near perfect, might have chosen a different grammar had we been closer to it). We preferred this to the local selective girls private.

My son is bright, but not as stand out as my DD. He is creative, sporty, bright and a perfectionist who would prefer not to try than fail. My concern with him is that, on the one hand, in the local superselective boys schools (if he got in), he would feel like a failure because he wouldn't be top of the class. On the other hand, he is sociable and popular, and if he were in a school where being clever wasn't cool, I think that he would happily coast along. He is naturally curious, and insecure. He is also very sporty (plays for a local football team, is a competitive swimmer). There is a local private school that I think would be perfect for him. It is selective, and has strong academic standards, but also very strong sport, art and music (I get the impression you can find your tribe, whatever your interests). We want him to try for a scholarship (which is potentially much more than the nominal 5%'s you often get nowdays). IF he got in and IF he got a good scholarship, then we think we could afford for him to go.

I had assumed, this would be fine with my DD because her school feels like it will be such a good fit for her. But she is a bit upset at the idea that her brother might get to go to this school because they have much better facilities than her school will have. We couldn't have afforded for her to go to the girls private because their scholarships are tiny. My question is, AIBU to consider private for one and not the other? If you don't think I am, do you have any thoughts/experience/advice on how to manage (and resolve?) my DD's current feeling of missing out? I don't want her to feel it is unfair. But I also want to find the best school for my DS.

Lots of people do this around where we are. I can think of three families who have one in grammar and one in private. A lot of the children who go to prep schools are aiming for grammar - if they are unsuccessful they go to another private school. So many siblings where one is educated at grammar and one at private.

Well you can't say you haven't been warned... not only on here, but by your own DD's reaction.

Along with everyone else on here (!) I've also seen this work out badly - long term sibling resentment (and towards parents too).

It is interesting that your focus - your justification - is completely on mitigating your DS's potential feelings of not being good enough... but when your DD talks of her feelings - your reaction is to talk of 'soothing' with treats... but ultimately, your DS will come first.

Why isn't it a better idea that your 'perfectionist' son 'who would prefer not to try than fail' is made to try and taught that that's an attitude that won't get him very far? - and that if he does try, he (who is also bright) can and will succeed at the selective? Why isn't it better for the plan to be that he does try for the grammar as you know that you can have the private option in reserve if he does start to slip?

It's the age-old story of bright but - crucially - also hardworking and diligent female child works for it, while the slightly less hardworking, bit more entitled male child gets it handed to them on a plate because heaven help it that he may not do as well as his sister. That's the way your DD will see it - now, and even more fiercely as she becomes an adult.

Here's your chance to demonstrate to your son that if he wants to succeed, he not only puts in the hours, but also gets his attitude right - to learning, to having perspective on stuff and not 'feeling like a failure because he wouldn't be top of the class'. If your DD felt that, she'd have just had to suck it up wouldn't she?

There is a real sense here of you feeling your DD can get on with it but you will go every extra mile to make sure your son is never less... even when the reason he might be 'less' is that he isn't prepared to work as hard. I would be so so careful of that because she will feel it even if she can't articulate it. It's likely that this is part of where her strong reaction to this has come from.

I would absolutely not do this - I would keep the private as the last resort option and tell your son that he has the ability to do well in the exams and at the superselective, and start seeing the downsides to his character that you outline in your posts as things that need working on, rather than the reasons why he needs special treatment.

I honestly think you might find that you end up with a better overall outcome in terms of achievements (from both!) and sibling relationships.

You have to do what's right for each child, but the other should get the equivalent in money/time etc.

Providing you can explain to your dd that she can access the same resources but in different ways I don't see a problem.
So membership for her at a local David Loyd, sking trips, language summer schools overseas, music lessons, theatre trips etc.

If you are expecting her to just do without the stuff her brother will get them I would expect her to be very fed up.

I was coming on to say what fizzygreenwater said much more eloquently.

Basically the lesson your DD is learning here is that being hardworking and intelligent somehow entitles her to less of an education than her less diligent and gifted DB. I'm sure that's not your intention here OP at all, but it would be hard for your DD to view it any other way and I can't see that David Lloyd membership and a few trips to the cinema would make much of a difference to her feelings.

So membership for her at a local David Loyd, sking trips, language summer schools overseas, music lessons, theatre trips etc.

How will OP make up for the small class sizes, better pastoral care and other benefits of private schools versus state schools.

@FizzyGreenWater completely.

Oh and for the DS at private school, there will be an expectation that he will be able to go on expensive school trips and extra curricular activities. It will involve constantly saying no to him whilst he sees his DSis off doing stuff he isn't able to - not sure a teen would grasp that it's just evening up the score.

So interesting that the response is 50/50. And lots of interesting comments, thank you. I am grateful to all of those who have stated it is not uncommon and can work well, and it is useful to know of situations that haven't worked. Some of those sounds like a very different scenario to what I described, but it is still useful because knowing where resentment has been caused.

Some of you have made some very big assumptions. We knew my DD was guaranteed grammar before the private admissions closed. I was very relieved that we didn't have to worry about it, and she was able to go to My son isn't as bright as her. She isn't there through hard work (which isn't expected of her brother), she has always been very advanced academically. They are different people with different skills and talents.

It is interesting how many assume that private must be preferred. I do agree that non-selective state can be really good, and there are clearly behavioural problems in private schools. I would not consider all private schools. Our second choice is state.

Lots of things to think about and work on.

@FizzyGreenWater has posted what I was feeling but not able to articulate. Really nice to see it all written out like that. I also agree that the outcome will probably be better not just for your daughter but also your son if you don't put him in private.

Basically the lesson your DD is learning here is that being hardworking and intelligent somehow entitles her to less of an education than her less diligent and gifted DB.

Total rubbish. Where I live lots of bright kids would much prefer the grammar school option - they tend to have better qualified staff and since there will be lots of kids applying to top universities etc there's more peer support when the time comes. Independents in grammar areas tend to be less academic. AT my DC's prep kids work incredibly hard to pass the 11+ and those that don't have to make do with the private.

I would hate this if it had been me and would definitely have resented the sibling. Private schools offer such amazing facilities. Leaving academic learning aside, there's so much opportunity for fun when you have amazing sports facilities, theatres, loads of brilliant extra curricular and trips.

Why are people assuming the private is better than the selective grammar? Most bright kids would be better off at the grammar even if money was no object. Should they force the DD to go to the private which might be a worse school for her just to make it "fair"? That sounds incredibly unfair - she's bright enough to get into a far better school.

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

Sounds like you don't have much of an idea about different kids and the school that suit them. Private schools are definitely the second best option for a bright, kid who prioritises academics. My Eldest is a very academic boy and enjoys the company of other similar kids. We can afford a private secondary but it would be second choice. (He doesn't want to be forced to play rugby 3 times a week, he can pursue the sports he enjoys outside of school). He has no interest in drama and already has music outside of school. Why would he want to go to private?

Independents in grammar areas tend to be less academic. AT my DC's prep kids work incredibly hard to pass the 11+ and those that don't have to make do with the private.

I live in a grammar area and that's not the case at all. While some of the private schools are easy to get into, many of the independent schools have similar exams to the 11+. Two of my children were at very selective grammar schools and they just didn't have the advantages of independent schools. The big difference is the class sizes, particularly at A-level. There also wasn't much in the way of pastoral care and I think this would be a lot better at the private school. Teachers are no better than those at other schools and if they get better results it is because the children on average more academic in the first place.

Fizzygreenwater says it SO well.

See these things about your DS as challenges he can overcome, not things you will buy solutions for for him.

Not true

A child can be academic but also love and benefit from the kind of facilities on offer at private. I was very academic, but also musical and enjoyed sport (although not wildly talented at either). Parents considered private for Dsis who was less academic but more talented musically. I was devastated that they thought she deserves the lovely private with its small class sizes & fantastic facilities more than I did.

Also even by 14 I could see that the less academic kids at the private went on to get just as good a grades & uni places as the academic kids at the grammar. It was not lost on me that they were benefiting from an educational advantage.

I think if you are very academic then a Grammar school is likely to offer similar academic opportunity as a private school.

It is all the additional stuff, sports, music, language schools etc.
My personal experience of pastoral care is that it varies hugely school to school.

My dc have attended both private and state schools although the same type at the same time.

The single most important thing is that your dd feels as valued and supported as her brother. That she sees you put the same finances and time into her and her brother even if not in the same way.

@woodchuck99

Interesting. I live in a grammar area and all the independents are poorer performers in terms of both GCSE and A-level results. The one exception is a well known boarding school since that obviously attracts kids internationally and from across the country. The academic kids where I live definitely favour the grammars and many who could easily afford privates travel long distances or even move to be nearer to the super selective grammar if they're "lucky" enough to get in. The indie's are considered the second best option. My area is full grammar so the comprehensives are dire and most middle class parents would sooner move house than send their kids there.

Some kids who could scrape an 11+ pass choose indies because they wouldn't cope with the academic pressure and would always be bottom of the class. If they're particularly sporty some of the indies have better facilities (although actually the super selective grammar has a better rugby program). I think a sensitive child might do better in a small indie than a big grammar but a geeky/very bright child would definitely be better off in a grammar. I know the most local private to me has a reputation for being very cliquey and having a bullying issue so definitely not the place for a geeky kid!

Surely music and sport can also be done outside of school? I have 3 kids and only one actually enjoys school sports (and only moderately) the other two each have a sport they enjoy but it's one they've chosen themselves and doesn't happen to be played at school at primary or secondary level. They wouldn't get any benefit from a private schools sports program. (I guess if you had a sporty child perhaps the private school would have more other sporty children and they might find their "tribe").

I guess it depends on the particulars of the schools in question but where I live no very academic kid (by which I mean not just bright but with a passion for learning and doing well) would choose the indie over the super selective grammar. I imagine it's different somewhere like London where the super selective indie's have more challenging entrance exams than the 11+ for grammars. I guess the exception would be if you had a kid who had a passion for drama and wanted to have the better drama facilities - although again there's plenty of opportunity for that outside of school but might be nice to have it all in one place). The kids who are super sporty tend to play at county level and don't bother as much with school sports (although perhaps that's not universal - just the kids I know).

I definitely don't think you can assume pastoral care or teacher quality is better at private - that varies school to school. I know people make that assumption but there can be terrible bullying in some private schools and it gets shrugged away (especially if the culprit is a family that's got a lot of sway with the school).

Both my twins got into grammar and they both went - but after a year it was clear it did not suit my daughter and she is now private. My son likes his grammar and could not care two hoots his sister is private except she gets more holidays. If I was you I would take her to some private schools and see if she really wants to change...she might just be processing her feelings and would prefer to stay with her friends.

Where I grew up, there was an excellent boys' state school but no girls' equivalent. It was very common for families to send their sons to the state school and their daughters to the local private (girls') high school. As the boys' school took girls into the sixth form, often sisters would join their brothers' school at the end of Y11. It didn't seem to cause resentment.

The point is not whether grammars or indies are better - but how the DD perceives it. Even though the grammar might get better results on average than the private, she might perceive that she might have missed out on opportunities. Maybe she will change her mind and not resent it - but there is a risk she won’t. Perhaps they could both go to state and both have the option to switch to private at 6th form?

Though in our area, many people switch from indies to the v good state 6th form.

Interesting. I live in a grammar area and all the independents are poorer performers in terms of both GCSE and A-level results.

But is that because the children at the independents are on average less academic in the first place rather than because the teaching isn't as good? If the children aren't as academic and first place you are not really comparing like with like .
As I said some of the independents where I live are as difficult to get into as the grammar schools. They achieve better GCSE and A-level results and certainly get more children into Oxford and Cambridge. Added to this facilities for music and theatre as well as sport are far better and the environment looks a lot nicer.

See these things about your DS as challenges he can overcome, not things you will buy solutions for for him What exactly would we be buying for him? He could only go if he earns a fairly substantial scholarship (through hard work on his sports), we are encouraging him to work for an entrance exam, because whilst less competitive than the most competitive super selective Grammars in the country, it is still competitive. We are thinking about this environment because we don't think that the incredibly high achieving grammars would be right for him. He is a boy and I don't think that it is right to ignore his anxieties and insecurities and to just tell a small child to toughen up, but rather I want to find an environment that can help him to overcome those. I don't want him to be somewhere that he could be allowed to hide from his fears by coasting.

For my DD, I want her to be able to demonstrate how bright she is, and not feel like she has to hide and pretend she is not as smart as she is. I want her to be challenged and to challenge herself. I want her to rediscover her passion for learning with other children who value learning. And I want her to learn that she does need to work hard. I also want her to be able to explore and develop her interests with people for whom being a bit awkward sometimes and a bit shy is not a problem. Her school will have a lot of very bright girls, and I think she will discover that the world is her oyster, whatever her passions become.