Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Is this teacher being unreasonable?

306 replies

OhHolyJesus · 16/01/2020 22:46

3rd time lucky, genuinely not being goady, I'm seriously concerned reading this teacher's account and I want to share so others can be aware and see how it is from a teacher's perspective.

This is from Safe Schools Alliance:

I am utterly horrified at what was taught at a PSHE lesson at my school recently. It was to a group of children, most are 11-12 years old. It is so, so much worse than I thought.
The topic was LGBT and Diversity. The kids were taught that biological sex is your anatomy (genitals etc), however, male, female and intersex are genders and are on a spectrum. They were told that people can identify however they want -- as male or female. Some people identify as neither; some identify as non-binary. The teachers spoke about lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people. They explained a lesbian is attracted to ‘other women’, but it was clear that if anyone can identify as a woman then ‘other women’ may actually be men. ‘Cisgender’ was also mentioned and the kids were told that ‘a cisgender person is someone who identifies with the sex they were assigned at birth’. Sex and gender were conflated throughout the lesson and sometimes they were used as synonyms. The kids went home thinking God knows what.
The kids were also told briefly about bestiality, sex toys and masturbation. I really, truly wish that I was kidding. I don’t know who brought up bestiality but the teachers should have shut this down immediately and explained that it is inappropriate, not to mention illegal in the UK. Nothing of the sort. One of the teachers said it was a sexuality whereby some people are attracted to and have sex with animals. It was talked about like it is completely normal. The other things that were taught, were sex toys and masturbation. The kids were told about how people “pleasure themselves”, that some women use a vibrator and some men masturbate to pornography.
I feel disgusted and disheartened. I feel a lesson like that should be reported to the headteacher and the governors but I don’t think it will be dealt with appropriately. The school has form for not taking safeguarding seriously. I feel like I’m going mad and I’m wrong. I know I’m not, but it feels like it. I hope that the parents will say something. They must. Some of the boys [in our school] act a lot older than their age. They are always making inappropriate sexual comments or asking inappropriate sexual questions. I suspect some are also watching pornography online. A couple are obsessed with murder, rape [of girls], suicide and corporal punishment. The sort of PSHE lesson I witnessed will do nothing to challenge their unhealthy attitudes to sex, relationships and women.
We also have a student who is transgender. A girl who identifies as a boy. We were told to use male pronouns to use for her. There was no discussion. I don’t think this is in [the student’s] best interests but I felt unable to say anything. A teacher was reprimanded by a colleague for using ‘she’ for this girl. I [have been] forced to lie to a student. She used ‘she’ for the [transboy] and was told off by a teacher. I am being forced to actively lie. I feel that I cannot safeguard my students effectively. I am worried and scared for the kids-- especially our girls – what they’re being told and being forced to use mixed-sex toilets. At this point, I think that the only thing that will stop all this madness is some poor young girl being harmed. The local council is in meltdown. [We] have sent them two letters. They haven’t responded to the second one but from the response to the first one they don’t see any safeguarding issues. Ofsted and the DfE are on board the trans train. The DfE is funding Mermaids. Who are teachers supposed to turn to?
Teacher, 32, England

OP posts:
karencantobe · 17/01/2020 21:00

All my sex ed classes were mixed, apart from one about puberty. It was fine.

OldCrone · 17/01/2020 21:13

I think it's nice to have some lessons that are sex segregated (though I would let anyone who would feel they would benefit more from being with women/men attend the class they feel most comfortable in regardless of sex) but I think most should be mixed.

But Linning, if you're letting some children choose whether to attend the boys' class or the girls' class, how do you take into account the feelings of the other boys or girls in that class?

For example, as karen mentions, classes about puberty might be single sex. Do you think the girls might be uncomfortable if a boy feels he 'would benefit more' from attending the girls' class? Whose feelings would you prioritise?

Linning · 17/01/2020 21:27

I think the class about puberty should maybe be the one that should be the least segregated to be honest.

We have different bodies but I think it's super important for kids of either sex to learn about the changes in both bodies, periods aren't a thing only women/girls should learn about.

I think you are asking the wrong person though, because like I said, I am someone who never had a problem with any of the topics discussed and preferred mixed classes to segregated one.

I think teachers should offer for kids to come see them after the lesson or whenever to ask specific questions as some may not feel comfortable asking questions in front of the classroom/boys/girls or maybe they could be divided in 3 groups boys/girls/ and people who want to be mixed. I would have picked mixed personally so.

OhHolyJesus · 17/01/2020 21:36

I do think same sex relationships should be taught, I 'teach' them to my child already. I regularly make up stories and we talk about kids parents at pre school (two mums) and read books. Tonight, in honour of this thread Smile I did a story about a prince being told by the king that he couldn't marry a man but he married him anyway as he loved him.

What I meant was I wouldn't want an 11 year being taught about anal sex or oral sex or heterosexual sex, (beyond the reproductive stuff). It would be fine for me for an older child (15 maybe) to learn about this in more detail and this would be, ideally, to support what they are learning at home, that the school is complimenting, not leading on this (however I do understand that not everyone parents the same and they continue to be many reasons why it doesn't happen and that schools do have a part to play).

I understand what you said about your sex ed being heteronormative, (if it's about making babies it would need to be really), and I do support sex ed in the context of relationships, any relationships, same sex or not, but the devil is in the detail here, that's why I keep asking about where people's lines are drawn.

OP posts:
OldCrone · 17/01/2020 21:44

I think teachers should offer for kids to come see them after the lesson or whenever to ask specific questions as some may not feel comfortable asking questions in front of the classroom/boys/girls or maybe they could be divided in 3 groups boys/girls/ and people who want to be mixed. I would have picked mixed personally so.

But if children are being told that they can choose the sex they want to be treated as, then all of these will be mixed. Any form of self-ID of sex means that there can be no single sex spaces of any sort.

Retrofitted · 17/01/2020 21:56

What they need most is not explanations of words they can Google in 2 seconds flat

Well that’s possibly the worst suggestion ever for keeping young children safe from harmful content about sexual practices. Take a bow SarahTancredi

SarahTancredi · 17/01/2020 22:43

You have taken it out of context. ret

Porn is a symptom not a cause in alot of cases. Even searching for it and watching it is a sign that their opinion of women/girls is so low that watching them have humiliating things done to them is a laugh amongst them and their mates.

Sure you can teach 11+ year olds what the words mean but they need to know to respect eachother. That girls arent objects for their pleasure.this is something that needs to be done from birth.

We all remember sitting on a science class while bits asked you for blow jobs. Or called you slags for not going out with them. There wasn't the internet back then. If they were lucky there was a screwed up ripped up playboy in the woods or wasnt exposure to porn that made them that way. It's the complete lack of anyone teaching them not to talk to people that way.

The way kids are exposed to things may have changed. But the way they are raised to treat girls like crap hasn't .

Til that's combatted the effect of explaining to a kid what beastiality is wont make the difference these people think it will.

SarahTancredi · 17/01/2020 22:54

If you want kids to be safe then how about the nspcc re write the definition of abuse in a way that doesnt depend on a kids decision on whether it was enjoyable or not in order to be defined as abuse.

How about we stop minimising behaviours and putting the onus on the girls to dress a certain way or change their behaviour to protect themselves.

I was technically I suppose I could say assaulted on a school trip. I didnt need words or definitions I just needed hom to he told he shouldnt have done that and I needed to not be made to feel it was my fault.

Knowing wouldnt have kept me any safer. But a boy being held accountable for his actions would.

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo · 17/01/2020 23:09

Retrofitted
Did you read the about the warkishire endorsed Respect Yourself website?
Words you can Google in 2 seconds flat.

The website was aimed at 13-25s year-olds and described ‘niche’ sex acts such as fisting, felching, cck and ball torture and bukkake *

Two things in there I have never heard of and I'm in my 30s.
Should children be thought about every fetish and kink?

karencantobe · 17/01/2020 23:25

Porn has been normalised. I wish it wasn't but it is. I think schools should talk about problems with porn, but talking about it in sex ed classes does not normalise it. That ship has sailed.

Streamside · 18/01/2020 00:18

Scary, my children and their friends had such varying levels of maturity at that age.Many of them simply couldn't have coped with this information. Imagine how absolutely mind boggling much of this information would have been for children.

karencantobe · 18/01/2020 00:37

The Government legal guidance around sex education seems totally sane. At primary school teaching is about relationships.
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/805781/Relationships_Education__Relationships_and_Sex_Education__RSE__and_Health_Education.pdf

If particular Local Authorities are not following this, then this needs to be challenged. But I do suspect a lot of scaremongering is happening.

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo · 18/01/2020 01:08

karencantobe

But I do suspect a lot of scaremongering is happening
Warkeshire cc no outsides

mobile.twitter.com/hubblevicky/status/1176758148721512448?s=21
You won't find the origional source as the website is in review by warkishire cc.
Not sure you could call people talking about this issue scaremongering. A website for 13 to 25 years old talking about felching.
13 to 25?why this age group?

GColdtimer · 18/01/2020 01:14

Just a couple of points, there are a lot of assumptions on this thread. People who are "sure this doesn't happen" or think there is "scaremongering" going on. To be fair if I hadn't been so immersed in this fir the last year I wouldn't believe it either. All I can say is read the threads about the Warwickshire guidance. Ask to see the lessons your children are being taught and find out who is supplying the teaching. You may be surprised at just how far this has gone.

Secondly this was a lesson for 11 year olds, fresh out of primary school. I'm amazed at the number of people who think this is age appropriate. My 13 year dd (who apparently is the only 13 year old not to have seen porn according to this thread! would not want to hear about this in a class and I would not want some random, unqualified adult from some so called PSHE education organisation talking to my child about abusive and illegal sexual practices. Not to mention the car crash that is the conflation if sec and gender.

There is nothing in the government guidelines that suggests teaching this to 11 year olds.

Clymene · 18/01/2020 01:14

It's very telling that initially Warwickshire took down links to that website bit joe it's gone altogether. Guess the optics weren't good. I wonder what jonny's doing now?

Clymene · 18/01/2020 01:15

Bit joe =but now

OhHolyJesus · 18/01/2020 08:58

You seem to have given up karen

That ship has sailed

So we shouldn't try to sink the damn thing?

That is what nornalises stuff, you accept it as part of life without challenging it. "Meh, I can't win so why fight?" Sort of attitude.

The Warwickshire CC stuff was taken down because Click Off and SSA applied pressure and they won. I stand with them because there is strength in numbers and I will never accept that reaching kids about porn and porn culture (and rape culture) is normal.

Don't give up, fight. It can be done.

www.theguardian.com/culture/2010/oct/25/men-believe-porn-is-wrong

www.menagainstporn.org/

OP posts:
ClumzyOwlz · 18/01/2020 15:23

Masturbation is a normal part of secondary sex Ed and has been for yonks. I remember a video with a cartoon woman using a shower head to pleasure herself, a video about how pleasurable clitoral stimulation is etc. This was many years ago.

ClumzyOwlz · 18/01/2020 15:26

fisting, felching, cck and ball torture and bukkake

Two things in there I have never heard of and I'm in my 30s.
Should children be thought about every fetish and kink?

I'm suprised. I knew all those terms pre-18, but tbh I only know what "felching" is because it was in an Eminem song Grin

Datun · 18/01/2020 15:44

Is that the one that translates to playing with your faeces?

I'm not about to google it. But one of the fetishes, that the website aimed at children referred to, was being sexually aroused by playing with your or someone else's shit.

OhHolyJesus · 18/01/2020 15:50

Did you learn them in school or the playground Clumzy?

Just posting this recent video here as it's relevant I think.

www.channel4.com/news/the-scale-of-school-sexual-harassment-and-violence-revealed

And this

www.myhealthyclick.com/viagra-use-in-new-zealand-has-almost-doubled-in-5-years/

“Young men are generally looking for a return to perfect erectile function. There’s an influence of peer groups and porn, and they misunderstand what Viagra does, they think it makes them last longer,” the sexologist continued.

OP posts:
ClumzyOwlz · 18/01/2020 16:19

Did you learn them in school or the playground Clumzy

Please, don't misunderstand - those terms were learned from Eminem or the school playground(I was just surprised you got to 30 without hearing them) but the general points about masturbation that I mentioned were from a sex Ed class.

Retrofitted · 18/01/2020 16:23

Should children be thought about every fetish and kink?

Well, for starters, that would take up way too much curriculum time, so no.

Sex Ed does generally offer the opportunity to ask what things mean that they’ve heard about.

As a very young teacher I was asked what felching meant. I didn’t know (sheltered and innocent as I was), but found a definition (in an actual book - old person now) and reported back to the child who had asked, who was being bullied and had not wished to disclose due to not knowing what the words being shouted at him meant.

I don’t know about you, but I’m not keen to learn what felching is via a google search.

It’s also actually really helpful to school staff to know what terms are currently in circulation, so that they be alert to hearing them used.

I don’t know what bukkake is, but if I were teaching now I’d find out.

Sisiwawa · 18/01/2020 16:43

There are terms on here that I've never heard in my 48 years, I can't be the only one!!
I dont consider myself naive or sheltered.
My son is 12, I wouldn't want him to know about this stuff at such a young age.
He is a young 12, but thats not a bad thing, he knows the basics and the contexts, surely that's enough at 11/12? Why would they need to know about extreme practices and fetishes at that young age? Its more confusing than helpful, and has gone too far.
Its normalising extreme practices and leads to young people being confused about their identity and what they should feel comfortable with IMO.

ChickenonaMug · 18/01/2020 17:00

Retrofitted This is what bukakke is.
Had you known what bukakke is when you were teaching, then is this the sort of explanation that you would have given to a class of 11yr, 12yr or 13yr old children?

Is this teacher being unreasonable?