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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Is this teacher being unreasonable?

306 replies

OhHolyJesus · 16/01/2020 22:46

3rd time lucky, genuinely not being goady, I'm seriously concerned reading this teacher's account and I want to share so others can be aware and see how it is from a teacher's perspective.

This is from Safe Schools Alliance:

I am utterly horrified at what was taught at a PSHE lesson at my school recently. It was to a group of children, most are 11-12 years old. It is so, so much worse than I thought.
The topic was LGBT and Diversity. The kids were taught that biological sex is your anatomy (genitals etc), however, male, female and intersex are genders and are on a spectrum. They were told that people can identify however they want -- as male or female. Some people identify as neither; some identify as non-binary. The teachers spoke about lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people. They explained a lesbian is attracted to ‘other women’, but it was clear that if anyone can identify as a woman then ‘other women’ may actually be men. ‘Cisgender’ was also mentioned and the kids were told that ‘a cisgender person is someone who identifies with the sex they were assigned at birth’. Sex and gender were conflated throughout the lesson and sometimes they were used as synonyms. The kids went home thinking God knows what.
The kids were also told briefly about bestiality, sex toys and masturbation. I really, truly wish that I was kidding. I don’t know who brought up bestiality but the teachers should have shut this down immediately and explained that it is inappropriate, not to mention illegal in the UK. Nothing of the sort. One of the teachers said it was a sexuality whereby some people are attracted to and have sex with animals. It was talked about like it is completely normal. The other things that were taught, were sex toys and masturbation. The kids were told about how people “pleasure themselves”, that some women use a vibrator and some men masturbate to pornography.
I feel disgusted and disheartened. I feel a lesson like that should be reported to the headteacher and the governors but I don’t think it will be dealt with appropriately. The school has form for not taking safeguarding seriously. I feel like I’m going mad and I’m wrong. I know I’m not, but it feels like it. I hope that the parents will say something. They must. Some of the boys [in our school] act a lot older than their age. They are always making inappropriate sexual comments or asking inappropriate sexual questions. I suspect some are also watching pornography online. A couple are obsessed with murder, rape [of girls], suicide and corporal punishment. The sort of PSHE lesson I witnessed will do nothing to challenge their unhealthy attitudes to sex, relationships and women.
We also have a student who is transgender. A girl who identifies as a boy. We were told to use male pronouns to use for her. There was no discussion. I don’t think this is in [the student’s] best interests but I felt unable to say anything. A teacher was reprimanded by a colleague for using ‘she’ for this girl. I [have been] forced to lie to a student. She used ‘she’ for the [transboy] and was told off by a teacher. I am being forced to actively lie. I feel that I cannot safeguard my students effectively. I am worried and scared for the kids-- especially our girls – what they’re being told and being forced to use mixed-sex toilets. At this point, I think that the only thing that will stop all this madness is some poor young girl being harmed. The local council is in meltdown. [We] have sent them two letters. They haven’t responded to the second one but from the response to the first one they don’t see any safeguarding issues. Ofsted and the DfE are on board the trans train. The DfE is funding Mermaids. Who are teachers supposed to turn to?
Teacher, 32, England

OP posts:
OhHolyJesus · 19/01/2020 10:50

Oh dear does writing in your maiden or married name mean you are hiding.

Due to the public nature of my husbands job I write in my maiden name. It's standard practice in my circles.

Sprout is not a great source Saphfire but of course Sprout is entitled to Sprout's opinion, which is what that link is.

OP posts:
OhHolyJesus · 19/01/2020 10:53

Also this piece refers to Tracy giving her views where she centres women and girls in her feminism. Seems pretty standard to me.

OP posts:
Clymene · 19/01/2020 11:05

The protection of women's and girls' hard won rights being dismissed as transphobia is a deliberate ploy.

Girls and women have single sex spaces protected by law. There is a well funded attempt to dismantle them led by stonewall. Grassroots organisations like SSA are standing up for the rights of all women and children to protect those rights. Because once things have been changed, even unlawfully, it's very difficult to get them restored.

This is the sort of thing men do in mixed sex spaces.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/sexual-predator-stalked-trafford-centre-17587831

SarahTancredi · 19/01/2020 11:24

The protection of women's and girls' hard won rights being dismissed as transphobia is a deliberate ploy

Yes funny how no one ever manages to an seen the question about what rights they currently dont have.

They have the same protection in law as anyone else. They have the law on their side re workplace discrimination. If anyone beats them up in a toilet they do what they tell women they should do. Call the police. Schools are usually happy enough to allow usage if a private stall somewhere. Usually the accessible or the staff toilets (that's another debate granted)

So what Is it that's the problem?

The only right not currently given is the right to get naked amongst women and girls. Or men and boys I guess too although transmen are less vocal.

GColdtimer · 19/01/2020 11:42

Saphfire what is so "interesting" about that doxxing you posted, apart from the fact it was posted by someone who enjoys harassing women on the internet (ie not an unbiased source)? Is that really the best you have. Oh look, a gender critical woman doesn't want men in female spaces and is concerned about the rights of her children" and decided to join forces with other women who felt the same. Big fucking deal quite frankly. Hardly a big reveal.

OldCrone · 19/01/2020 11:47

"trans lobby groups push policies which allow males into female spaces, including in schools."

Typical anti-trans speak.

SaphfireRose
Why are you in favour of girls being taught that they have no right to single sex spaces?

Datun · 19/01/2020 11:48

Hardly a big reveal.

Indeed. And it looks as though SaphfireRose isn't quite grasping the location of the actual reveal.

1Gadfly · 19/01/2020 11:51

And Sapphire wonders why women feel compelled to use pseudonyms 🙄

SarahTancredi · 19/01/2020 11:54

I dont think they will be back now. And if they are it will just be another link to an article or something ...

They never answer the perfectly simple questions.

LadyLightning · 19/01/2020 11:59

In my opinion your comments about the transgender child in your school are concerning - whatever that child decides to do, misgendering them is not helpful to anyone. Especially the vulnerable child. The stuff about who is attracted to who, gender on a spectrum, all that sounds pretty ok tbh. I think if children brought up bestiality, my response would be to say what it is but introduce ideas of consent - really helpful to do, in any discussion about sex - ie. sex is ok when the other party consents but if they cant (animals) then not. Kids are surrounded by hard core porn through social media and good messages about healthy sex and sexuality need to come in early. I used to work with kids who had tried to kill themselves and a huge proportion did so because they realized they were gay or transgender and thought they wouldnt be accepted by their families (often quite accurately). So, if kids brought up stuff that was out there, I would imagine they have been exposed to it somehow. and I would want a responsible adult to have a discussion with them.

Datun · 19/01/2020 12:01

They never answer the perfectly simple questions.

And never seem to realise quite how much information that imparts.

SarahTancredi · 19/01/2020 12:05

I like to think that occasionally one reads and realises " oh shit good point erm..."
But far more likely the go back to their other forum screwing about transphobes

Still while theres even a teeny chance theres still hope I guess...

OldCrone · 19/01/2020 12:34

In my opinion your comments about the transgender child in your school are concerning - whatever that child decides to do, misgendering them is not helpful to anyone. Especially the vulnerable child.

Do you think it is helpful to young children to encourage a belief that they can change sex?

Encouraging such beliefs is of particular concern when very young children are involved - they might think it is their sex that is wrong when they are told that some things are 'for girls' and others 'for boys', when in fact it is the social and cultural concept of gender which is the problem.

OhHolyJesus · 19/01/2020 13:08

All children are vulnerable though aren't they? In terms of being young and relying on adults to protect them?

I've been assaulted at school by a boy in my class back in the 80s and we know that peer-on-peer assault is at really high levels (possibly unprecedented? Difficult to tell due to records being better-kept more recently).

OP posts:
thelongdarkteatimeofthesoul · 19/01/2020 13:17

Yep, being a child is being vulnerable, by definition.

Some children are especially vulnerable in comparison to age peers due to being in care or due to a disability or history of trauma or abuse obviously. Lots of children in every school will be more vulnerable than average for a range of reasons, but all children are vulnerable.

Clymene · 19/01/2020 13:22

As mentioned earlier in the thread, GIDS specifically cautions against social transitioning

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/17/encouraging-children-socially-transition-gender-risks-long-term/

GColdtimer · 19/01/2020 13:52

This is an interesting chart looking at the causes of GD. I think this is what needs to be discussed. Simply affirming will not deal with these causes. This affirmation approach has the potential to do More damage.

https://twitter.com/AliceHope57/status/1073330434635816960?s=20

SarahTancredi · 19/01/2020 14:11

And this is training slide showing how many normal teenage/pre teen feelings are actually symptoms of GD.

Note now a dx if adhd or autism is a sign also. Insinuating that affirmation will cure autusmConfused

Is this teacher being unreasonable?
karencantobe · 19/01/2020 14:50

In terms of how you teach sex education, I think it is about introducing it gradually over quite a few years. I think the Government guidance is good on this and very sensible. So if there are issues in a school, parents need to be saying that schools should stick to the government guidance.
I understand the unhappiness with teaching kids about transgender. But I do think schools are in a difficult situation here. You do in most or nearly all schools have kids who are saying they are transgender, so schools can't just totally ignore it.
I would be interested how people here think schools should approach the teaching about transgender remembering they likely have some transgender pupils?

thelongdarkteatimeofthesoul · 19/01/2020 14:57

I'm not actually sure transgender issues are part of sex education.

Transgender isn't a sexual orientation. Transgender people don't have sex differently to heterosexual or homosexual people not identifying as transgender.

Schools probably do need to teach about transgenderism, but probably under citizenship not sex education.

SarahTancredi · 19/01/2020 14:58

I would be interested how people here think schools should approach the teaching about transgender remembering they likely have some transgender pupils?

By following the nhs watchful waiting advice. And by not allowing external lobby groups with zero medical.back ground who all have their livelihoods dependent on the constant stream.of transgender children in to talk to the children.

It's a huge conflict of interests.

Theres a reason they are going into schools and not old peoples homes.

Under no circumstances should teachers be keeping secrets from parents, transitioning children behind their parents back, placing kids at risk and overriding boundaries by forcing changing rooms and toilets to become mixed sex.

And of course making sure they do their best to not reinforce gender stereotypes.

karencantobe · 19/01/2020 15:16

The watching waitful advice is about supporting a child who says they are transgender. It is not about teaching about it. What should teachers say to their pupils about what being transgender is?

SarahTancredi · 19/01/2020 15:20

Yes but it would mean that they wouldnt have changed names or gaslit other pupils so any teaching other than reinforcing the fact that gender stereotypes are nonsense and that people should be free to Express themselves any way they want would be unnecessary .

SarahTancredi · 19/01/2020 15:21

Then perhaps just focus on anti bullying

karencantobe · 19/01/2020 15:21

Surely schools don't change kids names? That is up to the child.

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