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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Is this teacher being unreasonable?

306 replies

OhHolyJesus · 16/01/2020 22:46

3rd time lucky, genuinely not being goady, I'm seriously concerned reading this teacher's account and I want to share so others can be aware and see how it is from a teacher's perspective.

This is from Safe Schools Alliance:

I am utterly horrified at what was taught at a PSHE lesson at my school recently. It was to a group of children, most are 11-12 years old. It is so, so much worse than I thought.
The topic was LGBT and Diversity. The kids were taught that biological sex is your anatomy (genitals etc), however, male, female and intersex are genders and are on a spectrum. They were told that people can identify however they want -- as male or female. Some people identify as neither; some identify as non-binary. The teachers spoke about lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people. They explained a lesbian is attracted to ‘other women’, but it was clear that if anyone can identify as a woman then ‘other women’ may actually be men. ‘Cisgender’ was also mentioned and the kids were told that ‘a cisgender person is someone who identifies with the sex they were assigned at birth’. Sex and gender were conflated throughout the lesson and sometimes they were used as synonyms. The kids went home thinking God knows what.
The kids were also told briefly about bestiality, sex toys and masturbation. I really, truly wish that I was kidding. I don’t know who brought up bestiality but the teachers should have shut this down immediately and explained that it is inappropriate, not to mention illegal in the UK. Nothing of the sort. One of the teachers said it was a sexuality whereby some people are attracted to and have sex with animals. It was talked about like it is completely normal. The other things that were taught, were sex toys and masturbation. The kids were told about how people “pleasure themselves”, that some women use a vibrator and some men masturbate to pornography.
I feel disgusted and disheartened. I feel a lesson like that should be reported to the headteacher and the governors but I don’t think it will be dealt with appropriately. The school has form for not taking safeguarding seriously. I feel like I’m going mad and I’m wrong. I know I’m not, but it feels like it. I hope that the parents will say something. They must. Some of the boys [in our school] act a lot older than their age. They are always making inappropriate sexual comments or asking inappropriate sexual questions. I suspect some are also watching pornography online. A couple are obsessed with murder, rape [of girls], suicide and corporal punishment. The sort of PSHE lesson I witnessed will do nothing to challenge their unhealthy attitudes to sex, relationships and women.
We also have a student who is transgender. A girl who identifies as a boy. We were told to use male pronouns to use for her. There was no discussion. I don’t think this is in [the student’s] best interests but I felt unable to say anything. A teacher was reprimanded by a colleague for using ‘she’ for this girl. I [have been] forced to lie to a student. She used ‘she’ for the [transboy] and was told off by a teacher. I am being forced to actively lie. I feel that I cannot safeguard my students effectively. I am worried and scared for the kids-- especially our girls – what they’re being told and being forced to use mixed-sex toilets. At this point, I think that the only thing that will stop all this madness is some poor young girl being harmed. The local council is in meltdown. [We] have sent them two letters. They haven’t responded to the second one but from the response to the first one they don’t see any safeguarding issues. Ofsted and the DfE are on board the trans train. The DfE is funding Mermaids. Who are teachers supposed to turn to?
Teacher, 32, England

OP posts:
OhHolyJesus · 17/01/2020 17:04

I'd prefer it to be factually correct

Yes me too - facts being a bit lacking lately - and I'm not even going to get into that (on the T in LGBT specifically).

OP posts:
slipperywhensparticus · 17/01/2020 17:38

@Oncewasblueandyellowtwo

Why are things like anal sex not unusual amongst young people? What changed?

Hopefully education, anal sex causes issues there is a rise in women with continence issues due to anal sex like the surgeon said it's an EXIT not an ENTRANCE (admittedly so is the vagina but that needs to be used as an entrance before it needs to be used as an exit)

thelongdarkteatimeofthesoul · 17/01/2020 17:45

Anything about anal sex should include the dangers and risk of damage to the partner receiving/ being penetrated and the fact that lots of gay men don't do it very often, and it isn't essential even in a gay male sexual relationship.

bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/8/e004996 article in the British Medical Journal

Linning · 17/01/2020 18:20

Considering some people are gay I do think anal sex needs to be brought up. Not least because you increasing your chances of getting AIDS through anal sex vs vaginal sex. I think you can bring up facts without encouraging something.

I would expect teachers to factually explain gay sex and how to protect themselves/the risk in a factual way, without glorifying anal (or any kind of) sex. Gay men are the most likely to contract an STD, so anal sex and things like PreP should 100% be discussed in class imo.

@Oncewasblueandyellowtwo

I think it’s because sex is less taboo nowadays so a lot of young adults/teenagers own sex toys/experience with their body, try out new things.

I didn’t even know anal sex was this «taboo» thing most people didn’t do until I talked to my friends about it and realized a lot of them saw it as this «out there» thing. See, had I been taught about sex properly I would have known that it wasn’t necessarily a normal thing for men to expect or feel owed, I just assumed it was the norm.

I would say things like BDSM are also very common nowadays, I don’t think it’s a bad thing as long as everybody is consenting and feel comfortable saying no and stopping at all times.

I think what changed is that women have come to realize that their pleasure also count for something and are doing things that probably would have horrified former generations vs sticking to vanilla sex just because it’s more lady-like. Anal sex does nothing for me (and I am glad it’s not part of my sex routine anymore) but it does for a lot of women. More power to them I suppose. (Also there is an increase of men receiving anal sex from their women so I think it need to be taught and talked about because it’s a common practice regardless of orientation or sex)

karencantobe · 17/01/2020 18:21

Some gay men have a lot of anal sex, some gay men never have anal sex.
Saying it is an exit not an entry sounds like every homophobe I have ever met.

thelongdarkteatimeofthesoul · 17/01/2020 18:30

Linning doesn't biology pretty much dictate that anal penetration can bring biological males to orgasm because it stimulates the prostate but cannot do the same for females because they don't have a prostate. I'm pretty sure it's something women are persuaded to do "for" men when it's in a heterosexual relationship, and increasing porn consumption helped men and boys convince their partners that "everyone does it" until it became somewhat true :/

Aside from the risk of pregnancy, anal sex is far more risky on multiple levels than vaginal, and of course there are plenty of other options whatever your sexual orientation.

slipperywhensparticus · 17/01/2020 18:37

🤦‍♀️ it's not homophobia to point out there is an increase in anal issues due to the increase in anal sex it's a doctor who said he is fed up with treating relatively young women for continence issues due to anal sex it's not designed for sex men do it but they usually know the risks and the right way about it the increase in porn means more straight men are doing it porn style but hey if you want to shit your pants crack on 🤷‍♀️

karencantobe · 17/01/2020 18:40

I know the dangers of anal sex, I am not promoting it. But talk about the dangers and how people can minimise those.

Linning · 17/01/2020 18:40

thelongdarkteatimeofthesoul

Like I said, anal does nothing for me but I do know quite a lot of women who love it and they aren’t the type to do anything for men that they wouldn’t want to do for themselves. I don’t necessarily get it, but I am not going to undermine what they say because I don’t experience it. Even some lesbians have anal sex in the intimacy of their own bedroom (so nothing about pleasing men there), I have no idea if it’s mixed in with other practices or whatever but some women obviously enjoy it, for whatever reason.

I am sure some do it because they think they need to and will make them seem more appealing (hence why I feel it (and porn) should be brought up) but I do think a good chunk do it because they enjoy it.

Plenty of people wouldn’t feel pleasure from being hit or restrained during sex yet others love it.

Sex isn’t necessarily logical, I think denying the fact that women can love any/all sexual practices is limiting women.

I think women should be told that nobody owes anything to you during sex (be it anal, oral, whatever else) and that sex should be fun and pleasurable for both.

I am in some lesbian groups and you sometimes have women posting about how they don’t enjoy giving oral sex and get a total slating for it by other lesbians, it’s awful and shouldn’t happy and I think teaching EVERYONE about how sex doesn’t have a script and can be as much and as little as you want it to be/feel comfortable with is 100% needed. Not only because of men, women can be extremely entitled to and cohersive (From experience)

Linning · 17/01/2020 18:41

Shouldn’t happen* not happy

karencantobe · 17/01/2020 18:42

Oral sex used to be a very rare unusual practice. Things change.

firstimemamma · 17/01/2020 19:06

I'd have been completely happy for my child to have been in that lesson (I mean he's a baby now but if he was the right age!)

I don't really get the whole 'cis' thing and I don't really think 'sex' and 'gender' should be used as if they are the same thing. However in my eyes those are 2 minor issues that I can't bring myself to get in a flap about. The actual nitty gritty of the lesson itself - no problem with it at all. (For context I'm just a nice, normal mum and a former reception teacher so very gentle, had a great relationship with other parents etc.)

firstimemamma · 17/01/2020 19:09

Oh and I forgot to say I obviously don't agree that intersex is a gender but again a minor point imo.

OhHolyJesus · 17/01/2020 19:10

Ok so I get what some of you are saying, but if we refer back to the 11 year olds in that classroom again.

If anal sex is to be taught as part of a healthy sexual relationship how would that be done?

I understand that we agree consent would be part of it and that condoms should be discussed, would it be based on the biology and location of the prostate and, assuming it was a mixed sex class, state that girls do not have a prostate and that they will not be stimulated in the same way? That there are risks and what happens if you have lots of anal sex? Would images be shown or diagrams? Cartoons animations of how it's done?

I'm asking as I want to see where the lines are drawn. What consenting adults do in the privacy of their one bedroom is not relevant to the OP.

OP posts:
saraclara · 17/01/2020 19:19

Oral sex used to be a very rare unusual practice

You can't be serious!

Linning · 17/01/2020 19:30

Of course you wouldn’t be showing images of people of having anal sex, the same way you weren’t shown porn in class to understand how penetration work something as simple as.

« The same way people have penetrative sex/vaginal sex, other people, mostly gay men, have what is called anal sex (brief description of what it is) the same way you need condoms for vaginal sex you absolutely need to use condom for anal sex as it carries the same risk as “normal” intercourse and even have a slight increase in risk for things like HIV. Gay men can have access to something like Prep to try and limit risk of getting HIV though Prep carries its own risk. As you grow up and start becoming sexually active talking to your doctor about how to protect yourself effectively depending on what you are into is important and something I would suggest you all do.” There, done. No need for shocking images of gay men going at it or whatever.

OhHolyJesus · 17/01/2020 19:49

No need for shocking images of gay men going for it

Quite right, I agree. I vaguely remember disgruntled parents lobbying schools on videos of a man and woman being shown having sex and there was a story about a live sex show (art thing, not schools) for kids not too long ago and the Hayward gallery thing...anyway I digress.

I do think it's fine of course to talk about same sex relationships and about safe sex but I'm still not fine with that being taught to 11 year olds, or the details of heterosexual sex for that matter, beyond a discussion of pregnancy, safe sex, contraception etc.

OP posts:
Linning · 17/01/2020 20:09

You are not fine with same-sex relationships being taught to 11yo??? At what age does it seem appropriate for you to talk about ? Some kids will experiment or have sex at 12/13/14 yo (whether or not we think they should) do you not think they should be talked about safe-practises?

The fact that nobody taught me about same-sex relationship as a kid as a normal thing and an option PUSHED me to have sex with guys, despite knowing I didn’t want to. If your kid is gay he will be gay at 11 and not normalizing same-sex relationship and teach him how to stay safe if he is (because it is normal and totally acceptable) will only hurt him.

I find it offensive that you think 11yo are too young to learn about same-sex relationships. What could potentially happen to them if they do?

The whole showing actual sex videos or live sex shows (???) to kids is a totally different thing and not something I would approve of not that I actually believe it happened.

Monstermummymum · 17/01/2020 20:12

I can imagine this kind of conversation happening actually. I don't think masturbation is something to be concerned about. If a child had asked a question about it- an honest answer is better then telling them you can't talk about it and making them feel sinful and embarrassed. Sex toys is a little too far for that age group however.... And if those children really do have obsessions with rape then they need intervention. I blame the video games kids play now for a lot of this. Teachers are having to respond to children who play games, read articles online and watch videos. They have a much deeper knowledge than we did at that age and so unfortunately education needs to change to suit this. The gender stuff is coming up because of it is relevant.

karencantobe · 17/01/2020 20:16

Most 11 year olds will have heard of vibrators or the term sex toys, even if they are not sure what they are.

Sunkisses · 17/01/2020 20:36

YANBU. Jeez if any perverted teachers tried to teach my kids about masturbation, let alone beastiality, I'd go flipping mental. I can well believe this is happening under the guise of SRE (sex ed) and PSHE. It's already happened in Warwickshire. Parents should carefully quiz their schools about what exactly they're teaching their kids

saraclara · 17/01/2020 20:41

Teachers have been explaining and answering questions about masturbation for several decades. Ever since there's been sex education (outside science) in schools. That doesn't and never has, made them perverts.

OldCrone · 17/01/2020 20:48

Linning This morning you said:
I am in my 20's and not from the UK (though from Europe) and had sex-ed EVERY YEAR from the age of 11 until the end of high school, initially we were shown some cartoon that would tell us about sex/anatomy and after each episode we would have a talk session, initially it was mixed but then we were separated by sex.

I asked you this question just before the thread was taken down:

Do you think it was important that you were separated by sex? How would you achieve this now that some girls 'identify as' boys and some boys 'identify as' girls?

I'd like an answer to this from you or anyone who thinks it's fine for children to be allowed to 'identify as' the opposite sex.

karencantobe · 17/01/2020 20:58

I am old and masturbation was mentioned in our sex ed classes. Its not like they are teaching it. They will be saying it is okay though and normal.

Linning · 17/01/2020 20:58

@OldCrone

I personally think it was a mistake. (to be fair we were mixed back together in high school because they couldn't be bothered to separate us but in high school nobody dare ask personal question anymore and might at best throw some comments to try and make the teacher go red) I wish we had stayed together. I think they did it so kids would have more freedom to express themselves but I don't think it happened.

I wish we had stayed together so guys could have learned/listen to some issues women experience (and vice versa), by separating us you are kind of creating an echo chamber. I think it's nice to have some lessons that are sex segregated (though I would let anyone who would feel they would benefit more from being with women/men attend the class they feel most comfortable in regardless of sex) but I think most should be mixed.

Sex ed may have been one of the only place were men could have been made to listen to women's side of the story and how they experience puberty/sex and by separating us, they kind of prevented this from happening.

The first lesson when we weren't separated was interesting for me even if it was a bit graphic (as in what the boys were sharing not actual visual things) because it gave me an insight into something I didn't know could happen due to not having a penis and sometimes answered my own question (Is masturbation normal?do other kids my age do it? what are the risk) boys usually dare ask questions while girls are more shy around those topics so sometimes having a boy ask the questions for you (in his own way) is beneficial.

At least that's how I see things.