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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Is this teacher being unreasonable?

306 replies

OhHolyJesus · 16/01/2020 22:46

3rd time lucky, genuinely not being goady, I'm seriously concerned reading this teacher's account and I want to share so others can be aware and see how it is from a teacher's perspective.

This is from Safe Schools Alliance:

I am utterly horrified at what was taught at a PSHE lesson at my school recently. It was to a group of children, most are 11-12 years old. It is so, so much worse than I thought.
The topic was LGBT and Diversity. The kids were taught that biological sex is your anatomy (genitals etc), however, male, female and intersex are genders and are on a spectrum. They were told that people can identify however they want -- as male or female. Some people identify as neither; some identify as non-binary. The teachers spoke about lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people. They explained a lesbian is attracted to ‘other women’, but it was clear that if anyone can identify as a woman then ‘other women’ may actually be men. ‘Cisgender’ was also mentioned and the kids were told that ‘a cisgender person is someone who identifies with the sex they were assigned at birth’. Sex and gender were conflated throughout the lesson and sometimes they were used as synonyms. The kids went home thinking God knows what.
The kids were also told briefly about bestiality, sex toys and masturbation. I really, truly wish that I was kidding. I don’t know who brought up bestiality but the teachers should have shut this down immediately and explained that it is inappropriate, not to mention illegal in the UK. Nothing of the sort. One of the teachers said it was a sexuality whereby some people are attracted to and have sex with animals. It was talked about like it is completely normal. The other things that were taught, were sex toys and masturbation. The kids were told about how people “pleasure themselves”, that some women use a vibrator and some men masturbate to pornography.
I feel disgusted and disheartened. I feel a lesson like that should be reported to the headteacher and the governors but I don’t think it will be dealt with appropriately. The school has form for not taking safeguarding seriously. I feel like I’m going mad and I’m wrong. I know I’m not, but it feels like it. I hope that the parents will say something. They must. Some of the boys [in our school] act a lot older than their age. They are always making inappropriate sexual comments or asking inappropriate sexual questions. I suspect some are also watching pornography online. A couple are obsessed with murder, rape [of girls], suicide and corporal punishment. The sort of PSHE lesson I witnessed will do nothing to challenge their unhealthy attitudes to sex, relationships and women.
We also have a student who is transgender. A girl who identifies as a boy. We were told to use male pronouns to use for her. There was no discussion. I don’t think this is in [the student’s] best interests but I felt unable to say anything. A teacher was reprimanded by a colleague for using ‘she’ for this girl. I [have been] forced to lie to a student. She used ‘she’ for the [transboy] and was told off by a teacher. I am being forced to actively lie. I feel that I cannot safeguard my students effectively. I am worried and scared for the kids-- especially our girls – what they’re being told and being forced to use mixed-sex toilets. At this point, I think that the only thing that will stop all this madness is some poor young girl being harmed. The local council is in meltdown. [We] have sent them two letters. They haven’t responded to the second one but from the response to the first one they don’t see any safeguarding issues. Ofsted and the DfE are on board the trans train. The DfE is funding Mermaids. Who are teachers supposed to turn to?
Teacher, 32, England

OP posts:
HandsOffMyRights · 17/01/2020 11:44

OP, the closure of the thread on FWR has diverted posters to this thread so any attempts to close down this important debate on a site that parents and educators frequent have not succeeded - yet.

OhHolyJesus · 17/01/2020 11:48

Indeed Hands I'm glad we can keep discussing this, I think the SSA are doing really important work.

For those wanting to shut down the other threads or this one, I'm concerned for their motives but would welcome their input, I genuinely want to understand alternative perspectives.

OP posts:
thelongdarkteatimeofthesoul · 17/01/2020 11:49

All sex education in schools should start and end with the issue of consent - including but not restricted to the fact that children cannot consent!

That's the context a question about beastiality should be answered in - non consentual sex is never, ever okay and is illegal.

The key message should be that if you're not sure whether your partner has fully and enthusiastically consented it is not okay to continue. If you are not sure whether you want to fully and enthusiastically consent then stop. Its always ok to change your mind and say stop and it's not okay to ignore your partner wanting to stop.

Sometimes consent is impossible - children, very drunk people, and animals can never consent so it will never, in any universe, be okay for anyone to have sex with anyone who can't consent or hasn't consented. There are also some things nobody can consent to, especially anything which could cause death or permanent injury... Those things are never okay.

That should be the key message of every school sex education lesson, alongside information about biology, STDs, pregnancy and answering questions. Sex between enthusiastically consenting adults or by yourself is always fine, it doesn't matter which biological sex or gender you and your partner are, all that matters is consent.

karencantobe · 17/01/2020 11:52

I can't believe that a teacher would not say bestiality is illegal. And if somehow they did, they would know they had fucked up not mentioning that.
I swear some people want to take us back years where the only sex education was a biology lesson.

OhHolyJesus · 17/01/2020 11:54

The FWR thread was closed to new comments - sorry - the thread is still there.

Apologies, I wasn't clear.

OP posts:
HandsOffMyRights · 17/01/2020 11:59

I can't believe that a teacher would not say bestiality is illegal

I would brand it unbelievable too
had I not read the well documented cases of Warwickshire Council's guidance to schools, which fails to say anal, watching porn, fisting, felching and other sexual practices are not legal in its advice to 12 year olds. In fact, it goes further - it normalises this.

NotYourHun · 17/01/2020 12:01

How can we radically change our thinking on this whilst people think that if you don't fit one set of stereotypes you can 'change sex' and fit the other set of stereotypes? I don't see how that's progressive.*

It’s not going to happen overnight. We need to address massive inequalities in society, we needs to get rid of clothes and toys for girls and boys, we need to make it completely mainstream to be a man in a dress, or a female bodybuilder. In the mean time, making confused, vulnerable individuals feel like shit is mighty unhelpful.

karencantobe · 17/01/2020 12:02

@HandsOffMyRights Those things are legal for adults.

HandsOffMyRights · 17/01/2020 12:06

@HandsOffMyRights Those things are legal for adults.

We're talking about 12 year olds.

karencantobe · 17/01/2020 12:09

And age of consent will be covered as a lesson. Having penetrative sex is not legal for 12-year olds either.

IHeartKingThistle · 17/01/2020 12:18

This thread is s car crash - MN can't cope with a trans thread and an opportunity for teacher bashing at the same time Grin

EmeraldShamrock · 17/01/2020 12:18

That should be the key message of every school sex education lesson, alongside information about biology, STDs, pregnancy and answering questions. Sex between enthusiastically consenting adults or by yourself is always fine, it doesn't matter which biological sex or gender you and your partner are, all that matters is consent Perfectly put.

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo · 17/01/2020 12:20

Siameasy
I was just replying to you on the fwr thread before it was closed.
Unfortunately there are adults who cross the line and don't understand safeguarding of children.
See Nathaniel Knight, now husband of Aimee Channelor. Aimee was a member of the green party and lib dems and worked with Prism an lgbt youth group in Coventry. Aimees father was charged with 22 offences in November 2016, including the rape and torture of a 10-year-old girl, but went on to work for his daughter Aimee Challenor during two elections for the green party while out on bail.
A lot of Teflon coating, question is why?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3639203-Nathaniel-Knight-partner-of-Aimee-Challenor-worrying-twitter-admissions

Sorry not trying to derail the thread.

Is this teacher being unreasonable?
HandsOffMyRights · 17/01/2020 12:22

Age of consent is not covered though in Warwickshire's advice. Why not?

This is written from the male view and completely inappropriate for teenagers. It is written in a very creepy way using ‘baby’ words for sexual organs yet describes the most lurid of sexual, fetish and illegal activity, promoting anal sex for 12 plus and discussing fetishes involving excrement and fists. It talks about getting girls wet.

HandsOffMyRights · 17/01/2020 12:25

I have to dash off sorry, but will continue this later if this thread remains.

Siameasy · 17/01/2020 12:25

It’s worth linking the Metro article again:

metro.co.uk/2019/10/21/council-sex-website-teaches-children-bukakee-caught-masturbating-10955368/

As I said in the other thread, in that article you will see a “12 year old girl” wrote in about her ”porn addiction”. I don’t believe an actual 12 year old girl wrote that. I believe someone was getting off on it all. That website was open season for perverts.

Do you want your pre-teen asking adult strangers advice about masturbation? That Warwickshire website was aimed at 13-25 year olds. Note the blending of children with adults there. Blurring of boundaries. By a local authority.

Siameasy · 17/01/2020 12:29

Cross-posted with you Oncewasblueandyellowtoo

Exactly and those are unqualified adults who are strangers answering Qs about sex from under age kids. Encouraged by “reputable” organisations.

Basically pervs.

aliasundercover · 17/01/2020 13:04

All sex education in schools should start and end with the issue of consent
Absolutely.

I’m always a bit worried about the ‘drunk’ thing though. How drunk is too drunk? Unless there is a way of measuring it this will always be open to interpretation. Also, pretty much everyone I know has experienced and enjoyed drunken sex (not me, I don’t drink).
I’m not disagreeing, btw, I just find this a difficult area.

Monsterjam · 17/01/2020 13:09

I hope my kids are taught the vast majority of that when they are a bit older. It’s life, I think it’s important they know about diversity so they don’t feel alien to their peers based on gender, sex, sexuality (or any other characteristics)

GColdtimer · 17/01/2020 13:36

Sismeasy good point about the age range. 13-25 is not an appropriate age range. Blurring of boundaries once again.

SarahTancredi · 17/01/2020 13:42

All sex education in schools should start and end with the issue of consent - including but not restricted to the fact that children cannot consent!

See this is where I'm really torn. On one hand consent is everything and kids need to know that.

On the other, even your family dog knows what the word no means and I worry about whether or not trying to come up with a range of scenarios where it might be "unclear" somehow just implants the idea to look for loopholes.

The issue is not, not knowing when to stop/what no means, it's not caring they said it in the first place.

Sorry I dont know if I explained that very well...

thelongdarkteatimeofthesoul · 17/01/2020 13:44

aliasundercover I see what you mean about drunkenness, but mainly because it's the only possible "grey area" so perhaps shouldn't be listed with groups who can never consent under any circumstances, ever. It would be a mistake to associate children and animals, who can never consent under any circumstances, with drunk adult people where under some circumstances they could, dependent on degree of intoxication...

When addressing children under the age of consent, who often tend to struggle with grey areas due to the normal course of brain and intellectual development, I think it's best to stick to very drunk people can't consent. I'd rather my son's worked on this principle too - if she's drunk, wait til she isn't. It's safer for everyone on every level.

When you're actually legally old enough to drink, let alone have sex, you can think through your own personal boundaries with more subtlety - and of course established couples can have their own understanding around alcohol, but I was specifically talking about sex education in schools.

I agree talking about very drunk people not being able to consent might be muddying the waters although I do think it is worth discussing... Perhaps as a separate issue/ discussion though.

thelongdarkteatimeofthesoul · 17/01/2020 13:51

SarahTancredi I think the point is that enthusiastic consent is required and everything else means no. I do think it's important to be clear to children that children can never consent and even if someone tries to get them to, or says that they consented, it doesn't matter - children cannot consent.

The drunkenness issue muddies the waters as alias says, I agree. If you're talking about 11 year olds it's best to leave alcohol out completely. However if you're talking about a year 11 class, some of whom may be 16 or nearly 16 and many of whom may go to parties (or the park after dark Sad ) with alcohol flowing no matter that they're under 18, it is a very relevant topic.

Siameasy · 17/01/2020 13:52

GCOldtimerReminds me of Yanivs “topless pool party for LGBTQ youth age 12-24”

Watch out for the word “youth” in general, whenever you see it in this context. It’s blurring boundaries. The word is children

(The choice of 13 is deliberate I reckon because there is a distinction between a child under and over 13 in our sexual offences legislation.)

SarahTancredi · 17/01/2020 14:02

Oh I agree it needs to be clear that children can never consent . I dont think that message will get across as long as its deemed necessary by the state to erode boundaries and groom children from school age..Angry

As far as enthusiastic consent goes , I think alot of what is happening now , they cant not already know they are on dodgy ground that even enthusiastic consent means nothing because they haven't been honest in the first place.

And alot of things like drugging or filming or removing condoms etc well they didnt sneak around/hide the fact they were doing it and then decide it suddenly mattered if s/he is enthusiastic , . You can be enthusiastic but not be aware of the full situation iyknim.

Sorry it probably doesnt make sense it's hard to explain really..

I just kind mean that by the time it even gets to deciding what enthusiastic consent its often too late if that makes sense.

I dunno really it's all just so bloody obvious what right and wrong is and I worry that dumbing it down for the kids with stupid videos about tea is just giving them.excuses to somehow pretend they had no sodding idea...