Is this teacher being unreasonable?

[OhHolyJesus]

3rd time lucky, genuinely not being goady, I'm seriously concerned reading this teacher's account and I want to share so others can be aware and see how it is from a teacher's perspective.

This is from Safe Schools Alliance:

I am utterly horrified at what was taught at a PSHE lesson at my school recently. It was to a group of children, most are 11-12 years old. It is so, so much worse than I thought.
The topic was LGBT and Diversity. The kids were taught that biological sex is your anatomy (genitals etc), however, male, female and intersex are genders and are on a spectrum. They were told that people can identify however they want -- as male or female. Some people identify as neither; some identify as non-binary. The teachers spoke about lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people. They explained a lesbian is attracted to ‘other women’, but it was clear that if anyone can identify as a woman then ‘other women’ may actually be men. ‘Cisgender’ was also mentioned and the kids were told that ‘a cisgender person is someone who identifies with the sex they were assigned at birth’. Sex and gender were conflated throughout the lesson and sometimes they were used as synonyms. The kids went home thinking God knows what.
The kids were also told briefly about bestiality, sex toys and masturbation. I really, truly wish that I was kidding. I don’t know who brought up bestiality but the teachers should have shut this down immediately and explained that it is inappropriate, not to mention illegal in the UK. Nothing of the sort. One of the teachers said it was a sexuality whereby some people are attracted to and have sex with animals. It was talked about like it is completely normal. The other things that were taught, were sex toys and masturbation. The kids were told about how people “pleasure themselves”, that some women use a vibrator and some men masturbate to pornography.
I feel disgusted and disheartened. I feel a lesson like that should be reported to the headteacher and the governors but I don’t think it will be dealt with appropriately. The school has form for not taking safeguarding seriously. I feel like I’m going mad and I’m wrong. I know I’m not, but it feels like it. I hope that the parents will say something. They must. Some of the boys [in our school] act a lot older than their age. They are always making inappropriate sexual comments or asking inappropriate sexual questions. I suspect some are also watching pornography online. A couple are obsessed with murder, rape [of girls], suicide and corporal punishment. The sort of PSHE lesson I witnessed will do nothing to challenge their unhealthy attitudes to sex, relationships and women.
We also have a student who is transgender. A girl who identifies as a boy. We were told to use male pronouns to use for her. There was no discussion. I don’t think this is in [the student’s] best interests but I felt unable to say anything. A teacher was reprimanded by a colleague for using ‘she’ for this girl. I [have been] forced to lie to a student. She used ‘she’ for the [transboy] and was told off by a teacher. I am being forced to actively lie. I feel that I cannot safeguard my students effectively. I am worried and scared for the kids-- especially our girls – what they’re being told and being forced to use mixed-sex toilets. At this point, I think that the only thing that will stop all this madness is some poor young girl being harmed. The local council is in meltdown. [We] have sent them two letters. They haven’t responded to the second one but from the response to the first one they don’t see any safeguarding issues. Ofsted and the DfE are on board the trans train. The DfE is funding Mermaids. Who are teachers supposed to turn to?
Teacher, 32, England

That's assuming that when you say 'gender identity forced on them from birth' you're talking about stereotypes, as I don't understand what you mean by enforced gender identity.

HandsOffMyRights

Again, I VERY MUCH DOUBT that those kids were being taught that bestiality was okay.

But to answer your question, I would have zero problem with my kids learning that bestiality is a thing, it is, I don't see how them knowing it exist would affect them in any way (it didn't affect me in any way either) the same way I wouldn't be horrified about them learning about the term pedophilia, because it happens, and I would rather they learn about it and why whilst it's a thing it's not something people should do.

@GColdtimer

I think this one is complicated because while porn addiction shouldn't be a thing (especially in pre-teen/teenagers), I would say that unfortunately, statistically, it's been proven that it is very much a thing. People who watch porn (I dare say regardless of age) tend to be addicted to it, I would say that the person who watches porn once in a blue moon is more rare than the person who watch it weekly/daily/a few times a week. Porn is addictive so while a 12 yo being addicted to porn isn't normal per se, porn addiction, is pretty normal unfortunately so I would tend to say they said this so the 12yo in question wouldn't think there was something wrong with her when what she was experience was a rather ''normal'' experience for someone who had been exposed to porn.

Limming the crux of your argument for me is this:

"I won't encourage my kids to watch porn but I know they will, I will teach them that they can talk to me about anything and that there is no taboo or bad question because I would rather they learn from me."

This is a parents job. Once we hand over that job to a bunch of unqualified unregulated so called education groups who may or may not have an agenda is the point we are in trouble. And that's where we are at. You may think we are being alarmist but it's happening.

Do you have children Linning?

Long time teacher here. Suspicious of the hysterical tone and give away refusal to use correct pronoun for a child who is choosing to identify in a particular way. Don’t believe the other stuff is as claimed. Information is important.

Let’s face it, you’ve made some parts of what was probably a pretty mundane sex ed lesson sound scandalous because they don’t fit with your own particular shade of vanilla.

Ew, and the mask slips right there.

What the fuck has 'vanilla' (which seems to be becoming a derogatory term to just shut people down) got to do with the education of children?

Limming they were told it was a "sexuality". Just because you doubt it happened doesn't make it true.

And the only answer to a 12 year old who wrote that letter was that this is damaging and you need help or support. Thecwarwickshire CC site indicated it was normal. It's not normal for a 12 year old girl to be addicted to prom.

There is a vast difference between explaining why porn is not real life, and how it damages women, and the encouragement displayed to the 12 year old who said they masturbated all night long to pornography. (Which was part of the Warwickshire sex education.)

This is less about teachers tackling the thorny subject of difficult questions, and more about outside agencies introducing children to adult themes.

Gender dysphoria is real and distressing but affirmation goes against current NHS guidelines. Teachers are not trained to deal with such complex matters and the advice to change pronouns and affirm and celebrate children who are distressed is coming from lobby groups, not experts

As the mother of a 14 year old daughter who identifies as a boy, I can not emphasis this quote enough. The Tavistock clinic does not recommend social transition of children before they are seen for treatment, nor do the most experience psychologists in the field. It is seen as a risky an experimental approach, pushed by lobby groups. Positive affirmation is not a neutral act. When the trusted adults around an adolescent affirm, it has a strong psychological affect that can then make a child less likely to desist, when they otherwise would have.

We know that historically, most children would naturally desist under the watchful waiting approach where the child is not affirmed as the opposite sex. We now have a new cohort of adolescent girls presenting (previously it was mostly boys) and no one knows why. Referrals to the Tavistock have jumped from around 100 a decade ago to 2500 last year. We are now anecdotally (because the NHS does no follow up) seeing increasing numbers of detransitioners who had been affirmed as adolescents, but now as they have matured, realise it was a mistake.

I would not criticise a parent for wanting their child’s school to affirm- some parents feel this is the best for their child- however, it is a very complicated and sensitive matter and each child should be considered individually re their circumstances and the medical advice that their parents have received.

And anyone who indicates to a child their porn addiction is normal has no place near children.

Great post ROGD mum. And thanks for getting in touch. I will follow up with you.

OhHolyJesus

I think the first time I saw porn I was shocked, after that (and that's the problematic of porn) your brain becomes desensitized, hence why hardcore pornography is a thing so by the time I saw bestiality I am going to assume I had seen a lot of things and it was just another thing. I just knew it was akin to the more hardcore stuff I had seen, not something appropriate or okay just something that was being made because some people liked it? I don't know, I just don't remember thinking much of it just like '' it doesn't seem like it's something anyone (this specific woman) would want to do'' and just feeling sorry for her.

I am glad you are getting something out of this thread, I think mothers of boys have the most important job because unfortunately most aggressors are men and so it is so important to open the dialogue about topics people dislike talking about early because it can really set the tone for later I think.

I am sure you'll do a wonderful job, whatever you do! :)

Porn is addictive so while a 12 yo being addicted to porn isn't normal per se, porn addiction, is pretty normal

It's completely illegal for a 12-year-old to watch porn.

we were shown some cartoon that would tell us about sex/anatomy and after each episode we would have a talk session, initially it was mixed but then we were separated by sex.

Do you think it was important that you were separated by sex? How would you achieve this now that some girls 'identify as' boys and some boys 'identify as' girls?

Hi all and thanks for the reports. We've got some concerns about this one so we're taking it down now.

Hello again folks.

We've had a good look into all this and a chat with the OP and we're happy to reinstate the thread now. We had another thread running on the same topic in FWR so we're closing that one to new posts now but this thread is back so please feel free to continue the discussion here.

Apologies for the brief break in service! Thanks for your patience.

On Pronouns:

Does this mean we must all refer to Rastafarians as I&I?

@MNHQ can you tell us what the concerns relate to please so that we can ensure this information remains for parents and teachers and other posters?

I was on the previous thread and wondered why that was deleted - given some of the threads on AIBU?

Thanks for reinstating this thread Hebe although the threads of the conversation from the one in FWR which you've now shut will be difficult to continue.

I shall try!

@Siameasy - you said that you thought that email from the 12 year old was made up. I think so too. They had a policy on the website where they would publish emails from everyone and answer them honestly which obviously is open to abuse. The email could have been made up by a middle aged perve or kids mucking around but I very much doubt it was written by a 12 year old girl.

Thanks for reinstating this thread MNHQ and thanks Linning your last comment which I've just read makes me really sad. No judgement just my reaction. Beastiality is not something I even knew about until I was an adult and had my boss' email hacked.

I will go back through the comments that I've missed and try to answer as best I can, but I'm not the teacher so I can't offer any more info there I'm afraid. I'd love to be able to share 'evidence' but the teacher is anonymous. I remember that many, many people were not believed and were insulted and told to shut up before the Catholic Church were exposed for their institutional cover up and failure to protect children. I'm not conflating sexual predators with teachers here, I'm reminding myself that safeguarding is everyone's responsibility and we need whistleblowers like this to spread awareness and escalate the issue. I for one won't be shutting up anytime soon.

Safe Schools Alliance is not right wing, it's simply not political, and if anything they are tackling and challenging this within our current government which is Conservative.

Safe Schools Alliance is also not hate group - to be honest I'm mixed up as to which thread that comment was posted - but I refute this claim and require evidence to the contrary for me to reconsider. Questioning safeguarding procedures and practices is not a hate crime or hate incident, how can it be? It is motivated by love and protection. Of children.

My views on what is acceptable in sex Ed/PSHE:

Masturbation - it's fine to explore, it's private, pretty much everyone does it, it's normal, you don't go blind, anyone who tells you myths like that is wrong

Porn and language around porn/porn terms or porn practices - it's something for adults, it's illegal to share images or videos with under 18s and you should speak to your parents about this if you have any questions

Beastiality - it's not a sexual orientation, it's illegal, it's abuse of animals

Sex toys - are for adults, they are not something you need to really know about until you are older, but masturbating is fine

Rape - is a violent crime and is illegal...I would then ask what they were talking about and want to know more and involve more adults in this conversation

I would want the focus to be on consent, pregnancy, contraception, relationships (and include sexual orientation) and focus on puberty being a time when you are changing physically and mentally and emotionally and that the teachers and parents understand this, they have been through it, they can help and the students can talk to an adult if they have any questions. I'm not completely naive, the sniggering and messing around will follow in the lunch break but the information presented should be factual, open-minded and encourage dialogue.

As a reminder, these are 11/12 year olds. They won't be legal adults for another 8-9 years. In the UK media and society we are increasingly treating 16 year olds as if they are 18, and 18 year olds as 25 year olds (when the brain matures).

I don't know where this ends...probably with me home schooling my child!

YANBU OP.

To clarify the earlier closure of this thread.

My first two threads on this subject were removed without any comments so I think both were reported immediately after me posting. I had no emails on this but it was very quick.

The FWR one was shut so to keep this one open.

This was closed temporarily as I requested an edit to the OP. It's possible that it was also reported or that HQ just wanted time to catch up overnight.

I'll leave @mnhq to add to more to explain if necessary.

If your not in the room, you're not going to know exactly how things were phrased and how the subjects came up.

It's totally normal (and necessary) that in sex education lessons, pulls feel comfortable and have the opportunity to ask questions. It might be the only opportunity they have to get an informed and rational answer from an adult.

So yes, a pupil asking what bestiality is should get a factual answer, including the fact that it is illegal. According to the letter in the OP, that factual information was given.
The teacher would not have set out to teach about bestiality in that lesson, but they owe it to the child and the group to give an honest answer appropriate to their age.

I think this is at the crux of a lot of misinformation. People don't seem to want to recognise the difference between what one sets out in the curriculum, and what actually delivering a lesson and answering questions involves.
Responses to difficult questions from younger kids are kept as brief and as simple as possible. But refusing to answer at all is very rarely the right thing to do, for any number of reasons.

Is it due to concern over posters who were exposed to porn at a young age (reflected in some of the worrying responses)?

Exposure to inappropriate material as a child and lack of safeguarding/parental involvement = red flags .

This shows why safeguarding is fundamental. But when the individuals drafting and promoting the material have a distorted view (or disingenuous reasons) of what constitutes responsible and age appropriate sex education (and when there is no record of their training, skills, qualifications, experience, expertise or where there is no digital footprint of their career ) then as parents and educators it is our duty to ask questions and to be suspicious of anyone defending/promoting the grooming of children.

I agree mostly Sara but the point about it being illegal was not made. The piece from the teacher says "nothing of the sort".

I wasn't there but reading this as an account of what happened it sounds to me as it was explained as to what Beastiality is but no one said it was illegal. It's a simple statement to add to the explanation and the teacher who was giving the class (no idea if it was an outside source, the teacher's account says teacher not trainer) could have just added those two word "it's illegal" and it would be completely reframed.

The mind boggles - could it have been said "it's when someone has sex with an animal". Children are pretty black and white about this kind of thing, in my experience, to me I can see how a child might take that to mean it's a type of sexual orientation if it was not clarified further, there and then.

I do wonder what understanding the children leave with and if then it would be discussed at home.