Is this teacher being unreasonable?

[OhHolyJesus]

3rd time lucky, genuinely not being goady, I'm seriously concerned reading this teacher's account and I want to share so others can be aware and see how it is from a teacher's perspective.

This is from Safe Schools Alliance:

I am utterly horrified at what was taught at a PSHE lesson at my school recently. It was to a group of children, most are 11-12 years old. It is so, so much worse than I thought.
The topic was LGBT and Diversity. The kids were taught that biological sex is your anatomy (genitals etc), however, male, female and intersex are genders and are on a spectrum. They were told that people can identify however they want -- as male or female. Some people identify as neither; some identify as non-binary. The teachers spoke about lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people. They explained a lesbian is attracted to ‘other women’, but it was clear that if anyone can identify as a woman then ‘other women’ may actually be men. ‘Cisgender’ was also mentioned and the kids were told that ‘a cisgender person is someone who identifies with the sex they were assigned at birth’. Sex and gender were conflated throughout the lesson and sometimes they were used as synonyms. The kids went home thinking God knows what.
The kids were also told briefly about bestiality, sex toys and masturbation. I really, truly wish that I was kidding. I don’t know who brought up bestiality but the teachers should have shut this down immediately and explained that it is inappropriate, not to mention illegal in the UK. Nothing of the sort. One of the teachers said it was a sexuality whereby some people are attracted to and have sex with animals. It was talked about like it is completely normal. The other things that were taught, were sex toys and masturbation. The kids were told about how people “pleasure themselves”, that some women use a vibrator and some men masturbate to pornography.
I feel disgusted and disheartened. I feel a lesson like that should be reported to the headteacher and the governors but I don’t think it will be dealt with appropriately. The school has form for not taking safeguarding seriously. I feel like I’m going mad and I’m wrong. I know I’m not, but it feels like it. I hope that the parents will say something. They must. Some of the boys [in our school] act a lot older than their age. They are always making inappropriate sexual comments or asking inappropriate sexual questions. I suspect some are also watching pornography online. A couple are obsessed with murder, rape [of girls], suicide and corporal punishment. The sort of PSHE lesson I witnessed will do nothing to challenge their unhealthy attitudes to sex, relationships and women.
We also have a student who is transgender. A girl who identifies as a boy. We were told to use male pronouns to use for her. There was no discussion. I don’t think this is in [the student’s] best interests but I felt unable to say anything. A teacher was reprimanded by a colleague for using ‘she’ for this girl. I [have been] forced to lie to a student. She used ‘she’ for the [transboy] and was told off by a teacher. I am being forced to actively lie. I feel that I cannot safeguard my students effectively. I am worried and scared for the kids-- especially our girls – what they’re being told and being forced to use mixed-sex toilets. At this point, I think that the only thing that will stop all this madness is some poor young girl being harmed. The local council is in meltdown. [We] have sent them two letters. They haven’t responded to the second one but from the response to the first one they don’t see any safeguarding issues. Ofsted and the DfE are on board the trans train. The DfE is funding Mermaids. Who are teachers supposed to turn to?
Teacher, 32, England

There is so much that is concerning about this. Firstly that a teacher has safeguarding concerns, including about the school's leaderships previous responses to safeguarding issues, but is unable to get anyone to listen and take them seriously. This is surely a major concern. We see all the time following investigations into horrific events, that often a few people did recognise and were trying to raise safeguarding concerns but they weren't listened to or taken seriously or they were shut down. Teachers should not be finding themselves in this position. This is not an appropriate safeguarding culture.

Assuming that it was a child that bought up the question about bestiality, then by providing an answer in the way described by the teacher especially without even explaining that bestiality is neither normal nor legal means that all the children in the class, many of who would hopefully not have previously heard the word, will now be thinking that it is a normal and accepted attraction much like someone might be attracted to someone of the same sex, the opposite sex or to people of both sexes. How is that appropriate?

Often in sex education classes teachers ask pupils to write questions anon on a piece of paper, this means that a teacher can assess in advance, what is worrying or interesting most children and perhaps focus the responses there. It also means that a teacher can filter out any age-inappropriate questions, and address in private (because I am sure that teachers recognise handwriting etc) questions that would not be appropriate for the whole class to hear. This also gives the teacher the chance to work out if she/he needs to be concerned about the reasons for the age-inappropriate level of question.

@EmeraldShamrock to be fair it's done with year 10s so a bit older!

Also you’re a twat because you don’t want to call someone who identifies as a boy by male pronouns. You should leave the profession because you’re likely to do harm to the children under your care.

Bit of a reading fail for you there, Lanurk. The OP is not the author of this account, something which seems to have repeatedly escaped you.

@Pieceofpurplesky It was funny. I assumed they're older. It is a valid question for them. I'd have to practice a straight face to answer their questions.

I don't believe that a teacher would not say that bestiality is illegal.

I am not a supporter of terms like cis, but I thunk this account has been exaggerated.

our school newsletter sates this months throughout the school learning includes scottish literature and substance misuse. i think its brilliant.graammatically and factually correct.its not quite what was ,meant tho.
sticking my neck put,absolutely zero knowledge if its implemented..but guilt free masturbation info..might not be a bad...pre sex ed...beastiality is a deviance not genderish..kick up fuck..

states

Oldgreybadger I am part of https://safeschoolsallianceuk.net and I can assur you we are a group of UK patents, teachers, governors. We do not have any political or religious affiliations and do not support any kind of conversion therapy.

The account came to us from a teacher who got in touch after she was horrified by what she witnessed being delivered to year 7s by an outside organisation. It's up to people whether they believe us or not but we know this is true and have many more examples like it.

We believe in good quality, factual age appropriate RSE. Teaching kids they can change sex or were born in the wrong body is incorrect. We should be teaching kids to be who they are, not that their bodies must be wrong if they don't conform. This lesson is not progressive - it's regressive in that regard. Gender dysphoria is real and distressing but affirmation goes against current NHS guidelines. Teachers are not trained to deal with such complex matters and the advice to change pronouns and affirm and celebrate children who are distressed is coming from lobby groups, not experts. Other children should not be compelled to say things they do not believe. And nor should adults.

Teaching children that masturbation is normal is fine but anything beyond that crosses a safeguarding line. No adult should be talking to children about vibrators and normalising porn in this way is grooming children to accept it. The same goes for discussing kink and fetish. Particularly illegal forms.

Hope that has cleared a few things up.

There is truth in a lot of this.
Last year, My DC, came home, Year 7, so 11/12 yrs old and said they'd learnt about sex with animals and sex with objects (possibly sex toys, didn't give much other info)
I thought it was a bit odd/ unnecessary/ inappropriate at the time, and have since regretted not following it up...
I mentioned it to a colleague recently and he said He's really suprised more parents aren't outraged at our kids being taught this stuff at a young and vulnerable age. Parents are not made aware of the curriculum and imo schools should divulge this material to parents before going ahead confusing kids with info they are possibly too young to process.

They are not taught it, kids get to ask questions. Or do you think kids should not be able to ask questions in sex ed classes?

DC said they are taught about so many types of gender that it is mind blowing and although i do not know all the correct jargon etc, its normalising some extreme/illegal practices and seems to be a deliberate agenda. It has obviously been agreed at a high level that its ok to go way beyond what most reasonable parents would be comfortable with their kids knowing. Its storing up a lot of f*ed up problems for down the line i think.
They are still children.
This has them questioning their own identity at too young an age.

karencantobe Do you think that it is good for children to be able to ask or discuss anything about sex or kinks or fetishes in their sex education class, even if all the other children in the class are not developmentally ready to discuss the subject?

If one of the children has perhaps been exposed to quite extreme porn, do you think that it is better that the whole class is then exposed to a discussion based on what has been viewed by the one child or would it perhaps be better to keep the class questions to more common and age-appropriate ones and to discuss the more extreme question with the one child (and to perhaps assess for possible safeguarding concerns)?

But who doesn't learn how to masturbate? I didn’t until my thirties I carried a lot of shame for various reasons. Not everyone will get the “it’s ok and healthy to explore” message from parents sadly. I think it’s good it was mentioned, I may well have benefited from hearing it normalised TBH. But totally agree that more than that crosses a line.

I really find it hard to believe a teacher would imply bestiality is ok.

PegLeg it seems from what GColdtimer said above that it was an outside agency who came into the school to deliver the lesson to the Yr 7s. So not necessarily or even likely to be a teacher delivering the content. There are many different organisations going into schools to talk about things to children. I am not sure that all these organisations have the children's best interests at heart. I think that maybe some use the opportunity to inform children of their organisation's particular interest or viewpoint.

I don't think a teacher or an outside provider would normalise bestiality.

off..top[ic..off the radar. its not a topic i know anything beyond..oh my gosh/no,,,really...please dont answer,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,is there helplines.for..this kinda thing?prevention better than cure?(

@PanemEtCircenses this is in no way meant to be offensive as I know this is subject that is very close to people's hearts. (Please feel free not to answer) I know in all schools across the country that parents are asked to give their permission for sex education to happen do you feel you have more parental autonomy than in a state school to address the concerns you have? Im well aware that a larger state school could have a more a less direct relationship with the parents and guardians. I just wondered about the differences in the way PHSE is taught in different types of schools and parental ability to challenge their child's education. Thanks😁

Someone mentioned the question about whether anal sex makes you pregnant. Two concerns here...that the children concerned think this to be true....little knowledge of the basics, but we also know that anal is something seen in porn and boys tell girls this as a way of “persuading” them that it’s a great idea. In any case I would like to know that teachers are saying that it is generally harmful, especially for girls, and that boys should not demand it from them. I do think children need to know the basics but certain assumptions need challenging. Porn is not benign, and there are limits to behaviour.

I think this is madness. Children are not deemed able to agree to sex until they are 16 so why even begin to subject them to sexual 'decisions' at under 16?
Biologically we are male or female. Socially we may choose other varieties of this but again these are modern society highlights. Sure, such feelings may have occured in ancient times but why give them such prominence and validity to vulnerable young children who are already struggling with understanding the changes in their own bodies?

YANBU. This should be deeply concerning to parents. The normalisation of beastiality should always be called out.

I am not surprised unfortunately as we know that Warwickshire's safeguarding lead signed off some disturbing and age inappropriate material recently in the form of two education programmes.

This smacks of the 'Respect Yourself' and 'All About Me' campaigns from Warwickshire County Council which normalised porn, anal sex, fisting, golden showers etc. to children as young as 13. It suggested girls did not have the right to ask for female HCPs and that anal sex is completely normal and that they should lower their boundaries and put up and shut up. 12 year old girls.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3701737-Teen-advice-makes-me-worried?pg=1&order=

The content was challenged by many concerned parents and the website was suspended while Warwickshire Council reviewed and updated the site:

metro.co.uk/2019/10/21/council-sex-website-teaches-children-bukakee-caught-masturbating-10955368/

Find Excellent points.

There is an age of consent for a reason, yet some people (some working with or hoping to work with schools, such as Peter Tatchell) seek to lower that and we have to ask ourselves why?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3582509-Stephen-Fry-backs-P-Tatchells-call-to-revise-sex-education?pg=1&order=

it's about sexualising children from the youngest possible age

HandsOffMyRights, very much agree with your stance here.

Meh, I feel like half of these were simply answers to questions students asked.

I am in my 20's and not from the UK (though from Europe) and had sex-ed EVERY YEAR from the age of 11 until the end of high school, initially we were shown some cartoon that would tell us about sex/anatomy and after each episode we would have a talk session, initially it was mixed but then we were separated by sex. But I definitely remember 10yo asking about them having a ''hard on'' when watching people kissing and is it normal or masturbation and things like that, ALL questions were answered. I am sure some parents were told by kids that teachers had told us to masturbate or brought up inappropriate stuff but 99% of the time it was students, oversharing and the teacher answering honestly.

I am a lesbian and unfortunately for me sex-ed was 100% heteronormative, we didn't even get a tiny mention during any of the sex-ed classes. No ''this how lesbians have sex and how they should protect themselves'' nothing. I am SO glad kids nowadays are introduced to the LGBT community and that it's included in the sex-ed program, you can agree or disagree with the existence of non-binary people or trans people being the gender they identify with it doesn't make it anymore a fact that there are people identifying this way and that it is a reality for some and that likely someone in that class/school will also identify that way and relate, whether they will outgrow it or not is neither here nor there and doesn't matter, but I can't see how beneficial it would be to deny their existence and purposefully chose to make them feel excluded/refuse to use the pronouns they want to be referred as.

I am one of the great majority of lesbians who have no problem with trans women and definitely zero problem with a lesbian dating a trans woman and still identifying as a lesbian for example so for me, what the teacher taught your kid would be a total non-issue. I would be more concerned about the teacher purposefully wanting to upset a kid by using the wrong pronouns and then discussing the child's sexuality with you like it's any of her business (wtf?!)

You are completely delusioned if you think your kid didn't know about porn/masturbation and whatever else until this class. I was your kids age in early 2000 and even then kids found out about sex through porn and whatever else.

I personally think kids should be told about sex/puberty/sexuality/gender identity/whatever else from the get go in an age-appropriate way of course but by making it so taboo we are encouraging frantic googling (which of course will lead to places you don't want them to explore) and making it that much more appealing. Talk to your child, I don't think what they discover during sex-ed at 12 should be news to them, I think it should be reinforcement as to what they already know.

Things I wish were taught in sex ed and still aren't:

• Consent (and how consent can be withdrawn at all times)
• Rape and what constitutes rape (again should be linked with the consent talked but I know too many girls who ''give in'' after much nagging or stay in relationship with men who aren't respecting them because they haven't been taught that sex can be non-consensual even in relationships and that they have a right to take back consent).
• In-depth talk about STI NOT to scare kids off but to warn them of the risk while also destigmatizing them (the whole herpes vs cold sore thread the other day was big proof most adults have bias that could have been solved with proper education at the right age)
• Sex other than heterosexual sex, we exist and we need to be told how to stay safe as much as anybody else.

They are not taught it, kids get to ask questions. 11 year olds asking questions about bestiality is not normal. I’d be reporting to safeguarding lead ASAP.
We have this situation about a girl identifying as a boy too. It’s easy to avoid using pronouns. I’m polite, professional and respectful to the child. I won’t pander to such nonsense.

@Linning great post.