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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Is this teacher being unreasonable?

306 replies

OhHolyJesus · 16/01/2020 22:46

3rd time lucky, genuinely not being goady, I'm seriously concerned reading this teacher's account and I want to share so others can be aware and see how it is from a teacher's perspective.

This is from Safe Schools Alliance:

I am utterly horrified at what was taught at a PSHE lesson at my school recently. It was to a group of children, most are 11-12 years old. It is so, so much worse than I thought.
The topic was LGBT and Diversity. The kids were taught that biological sex is your anatomy (genitals etc), however, male, female and intersex are genders and are on a spectrum. They were told that people can identify however they want -- as male or female. Some people identify as neither; some identify as non-binary. The teachers spoke about lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people. They explained a lesbian is attracted to ‘other women’, but it was clear that if anyone can identify as a woman then ‘other women’ may actually be men. ‘Cisgender’ was also mentioned and the kids were told that ‘a cisgender person is someone who identifies with the sex they were assigned at birth’. Sex and gender were conflated throughout the lesson and sometimes they were used as synonyms. The kids went home thinking God knows what.
The kids were also told briefly about bestiality, sex toys and masturbation. I really, truly wish that I was kidding. I don’t know who brought up bestiality but the teachers should have shut this down immediately and explained that it is inappropriate, not to mention illegal in the UK. Nothing of the sort. One of the teachers said it was a sexuality whereby some people are attracted to and have sex with animals. It was talked about like it is completely normal. The other things that were taught, were sex toys and masturbation. The kids were told about how people “pleasure themselves”, that some women use a vibrator and some men masturbate to pornography.
I feel disgusted and disheartened. I feel a lesson like that should be reported to the headteacher and the governors but I don’t think it will be dealt with appropriately. The school has form for not taking safeguarding seriously. I feel like I’m going mad and I’m wrong. I know I’m not, but it feels like it. I hope that the parents will say something. They must. Some of the boys [in our school] act a lot older than their age. They are always making inappropriate sexual comments or asking inappropriate sexual questions. I suspect some are also watching pornography online. A couple are obsessed with murder, rape [of girls], suicide and corporal punishment. The sort of PSHE lesson I witnessed will do nothing to challenge their unhealthy attitudes to sex, relationships and women.
We also have a student who is transgender. A girl who identifies as a boy. We were told to use male pronouns to use for her. There was no discussion. I don’t think this is in [the student’s] best interests but I felt unable to say anything. A teacher was reprimanded by a colleague for using ‘she’ for this girl. I [have been] forced to lie to a student. She used ‘she’ for the [transboy] and was told off by a teacher. I am being forced to actively lie. I feel that I cannot safeguard my students effectively. I am worried and scared for the kids-- especially our girls – what they’re being told and being forced to use mixed-sex toilets. At this point, I think that the only thing that will stop all this madness is some poor young girl being harmed. The local council is in meltdown. [We] have sent them two letters. They haven’t responded to the second one but from the response to the first one they don’t see any safeguarding issues. Ofsted and the DfE are on board the trans train. The DfE is funding Mermaids. Who are teachers supposed to turn to?
Teacher, 32, England

OP posts:
Thingsdogetbetter · 17/01/2020 06:44

I have taught pshe 'sex' lessons to year 7. And it IS unfortunately perfectly normal for questions about bestiality, vibrators, anal sex etc to come from students. Sometimes it's students trying to shocking or 'cool'. Some are trying to see if they can embarass me. But most are genuinely confused by something they've been told or seen and have very inaccurate ideas (boys' balls will fall off if they'd don't have sex so girls have to have sex with them was one). All questions are answered factually at an appropriate level, nothing is glamourised or made to sound 'cool'.

Although I taught before transgenderism was protected, there were many questions and they were answered factually with the idea of tolerance and understanding of others.

SSA has an agenda. And it's reporting should be accepted with the same critical awareness as the Daily Mail's on Jeremy Corban.

Linning · 17/01/2020 06:49

@OhWhatFuckeryIsThisNow

Oh come on, half the questions kids ask are probably based on what they have found on internet/porn, or genuine curiosity... (Could a dog and human have a baby and if so what would the baby be like?) unfortunately bestiality IS easily found on internet, what type of safeguarding do you think that requires? Do you genuinely believe someone is encouraging bestiality or that those kids are genuinely considering have sex with animals?

You aren't being polite or respectful to the child by purposefully doing something you know will upset them (not using the pronouns they feel most comfortable with), it's not about whether or not you believe/agree with the fact that they are a boy/identify as one, it's more about the fact that it cost you nothing to do so. If someone is called Maria but prefers to go by Claire you would call her Claire, despite knowing it's not her birth name, why can't you do the same with someone irrespective of your beliefs/biology. There is a difference between adjusting your vocabulary to be inclusive of someone's identity to no cost to yourself vs actively encouraging kids to use hormones or go through surgery ( as in you can do one without the other...)

GColdtimer · 17/01/2020 06:50

What agenda does ssauk have?

GColdtimer · 17/01/2020 06:54

And what do you mean you taught "transgenderism is protected"? What did you teach?

LellyMcKelly · 17/01/2020 07:00

I have absolutely zero problem with this. It’s the sort of thing that gets discussed in the whispers in the corner of the playground with peers and older siblings. I’d much rather they had a clear, non puerile, non sniggery definition of what the words mean. I don’t imagine for one second that children are told how to commit bestiality, but you can bet your bottom dollar that a kid has heard about it from their 15yo sibling.

BoneyBackJefferson · 17/01/2020 07:02

OhHolyJesus & GColdtimer

The problem with this letter is that it is a convoluted, contradictory mess.

No mention of it being an external agency.
The "teacher" is (IMO) is right is some areas and wrong in others.
Is the teacher concerned about all that they have written?
Parts of what they have written?
Only some parts are clear.

And as with the other stories (your websites term) non of these things are verifiable.

OhHolyJesus · 17/01/2020 07:05

unfortunately bestiality IS easily found on internet, what type of safeguarding do you think that requires?

Don't let them go on the internet.
Install parental controls.
Don't give them a device that allows them to access porn and content only suitable a for adults.
Home devices are not on bedrooms.

OP posts:
Linning · 17/01/2020 07:12

OhHolyJesus

Again, I am sorry, but this completely pointless and ridiculous.

I had parental control on my computer, so does my 12 yo sibling, I still managed to undo the parental control (without my parents noticing) and access whatever I wanted to (as did all my friends), I still caught my brother watching porn last time I was visiting. Even if you were to ban internet in your house, you can't control what they do outside of your house, most of the things I have learned from sex I have learned at friends houses, on their computer or their phone (I didn't have my own cell phones until I was 14 didn't stop me from having seen porn at 9).

You can try protecting your kids from sex, but they will be exposed to it or they will be curious enough to find ways to access it/look it up.

It's a MUCH safer bet to teach them about it the way you want them to learn about it than try to make it this taboo things and let them learn from other sources.

GColdtimer · 17/01/2020 07:13

Lelly do you not see any difference between the normal whispers of kids and an adult talking to children about it? Do you not see how an adult talking to kids about how to masturbate and normalising wanking to porn oversteps a boundary. These kids were 11.

OhHolyJesus · 17/01/2020 07:18

Not sex Linning , Beastiality. Being that it's illegal and also watching porn when under 18 is illegal (so is rape and violence) I'll be stopping my child from having that normalised thanks.

Call me an old fashioned prude or whatever you like, freedom of speech and all that, but I will not contribute to the normalising of porn culture and rape culture via my kids education, nor will I allow it in my home and I will be raising him to make good choices about the company he keeps.

OP posts:
OhHolyJesus · 17/01/2020 07:21

I saw porn magazines at home as a child but because I went snooping, not because someone showed them to me.

I spoke to my mum about it, and the vibrator I found aged 15 and she told me what they were for. It was fine.

Parents still have a role here, granted some parents don't do this but I do not support this take-over by schools to make decisions about what our children are being exposed to.

OP posts:
GColdtimer · 17/01/2020 07:23

Boney all the stories on the website are verified. You don't have to believe them. Do you think we have taken precious time away from our families and our jobs to fabricate a load of bullshit? Why would we do that? I suppose it's easier to think that we have "an agenda" than actually engage with the concerns so many people have about the safeguarding of our kids.

Kids Boundaries are being removed in plain sight.

OhHolyJesus · 17/01/2020 07:24

What did you see aged 9 linning? Did you're parents ever find out, do you think it scared you or made you discover your sexuality?

If I saw someone having sex with an animal aged 9 I'd have had nightmares for weeks!

OP posts:
Linning · 17/01/2020 07:24

Do you not see how an adult talking to kids about how to masturbate and normalising wanking to porn oversteps a boundary

@GColdtimerDo

That's not what the kids were told though, in fact we don't even know exactly what they were told because the OP doesn't seem to know exactly what was said either.

She said they talked about masturbation and how some people pleasure themselves.

There is a difference between an adult saying '' You should relieve yourself while watching porn and here is how to masturbate'' VS
" Yes tommy, it's true, masturbation is a thing, and it's true that some people do masturbate while watching porn. Masturbating is a natural thing and is not something to be ashamed so if you have done it, don't worry there is nothing wrong with it as it's a natural phase of exploring your sexuality.''

See both are talking about masturbation and pornography one is wrong the other is educational and merely worth being outraged by.

I am a former teacher. 99% of ''inappropriate'' /controversial discussions were started by students in the classroom, when that occurred I always, always tried to answer honestly and in an age-appropriate way, I have never had a complaint ever but I bet some conversation that occurred in the class were translated back poorly to parents by some students ( I am lucky enough that parents knew to differ with what was most likely to have been said/talked about vs what their child was saying happened/was said)

NotYourHun · 17/01/2020 07:26

Surely the point with trans issues is that we shouldn’t be demonising trans individuals and should respect their pronouns etc. Because they are a product of a society where gender identity has been forced on them from birth and all they know is ‘pink equals girl, blue equals boy’. Until we radically change our thinking on this, and the roles we are expected to play to fit into these narrow definitions, trans people will be reasonably common. Not using preferred pronouns and being disrespectful is just being a dick.

AltheaVestr1t · 17/01/2020 07:28

SSA is a propaganda organisation and is hardly a trusted source of information.

Damntheman · 17/01/2020 07:29

Not using preferred pronouns and being disrespectful is just being a dick This all day long!

Teacher is being MASSIVELY unreasonable.

I'd much rather my children knew about bestiality and why it's wrong and why it's illegal so they were better prepared to handle it when/if they ever come across it in the dark recesses of the internet/friend's phone/library/dodgy magazines. Censorship is not the way to keeping people safe, education is.

HandsOffMyRights · 17/01/2020 07:31

You can try protecting your kids from sex,

This isn't about sex though is it? This is about adults normalising porn and the lowering of boundaries.

Are you a parent Linning? If so are you happy for your children to be taught that beasiality is a 'sexuality'?

This is about incorrectly conflating sex with gender, stating that sex is on a spectrum (ludicrous Jelly Baby training again?).

This is lying to children.

Kids Boundaries are being removed in plain sight.
Yy

GColdtimer · 17/01/2020 07:32

Limming I have seen lesson plans from organisations that have a section on "how to pleasure yourself". The Warwickshire website had an entry in daisy chaining and bukkake like they were completely normal. It answered an apparent question from a 12 year old girl which stated she was addicted to porn and the answer suggested this was completely normal.

Just because you dealt with it in an age appropriate way doesn't mean there are not organisations which are putting together materials that are wholly inappropriate.

GColdtimer · 17/01/2020 07:34

But damn that isn't what they were taught. They were taught that "It's a sexuality, some people are attracted to sex with animals". Like it's totally normal.

Linning · 17/01/2020 07:41

OhHolyJesus

I am not going to call you old fashion or a prude, I am going to call you naive though because as much as you want to (and that's understandable) you cannot protect your child, you are not naive to try but you are naive to think you will. My friends at the time weren't friends you would have warned me about was I your child they were (still are!) very respectable people, I was a teacher for a while some of them are doctors/midwives/nurses now, because lots of people explore and watch porn, it's not something you would be able to tell by looking at a kid so I am not sure how you would actively veto that? Again, I didn't have a cell phone, we had a communal computer IN the living room and it had a parental control (so I will give credit to my parents and say they did try).

As to what I saw, all type of porn actually tame one, violent one, and yes I did see some bestiality, it didn't shock me, it definitely didn't affect my sexuality it was just weird, like I knew it wasn't meant to happen and I felt strangely sorry for the girl, even as a kid.

Porn didn't affect my psyche personally, but it does others, I was sexually assaulted at 12 by teenagers (family friends) who I am sure were raised by porn and what they saw in it BECAUSE their parents were too catholic to talk to them about sex and consent and porn (and why porn isn't real life). Had their parents taken the time to put their morals/taboo aside, maybe their sons would have had a better/healthier approach to sex and maybe I wouldn't have been assaulted (or maybe not in the violent manner I was).

I am not saying you should encourage your kids to watch porn. I am saying by not teaching them about sex, consent, porn (and the porn industry with its good and bad points) you will make your son go to porn or the internet to find out and you will have no control over what he learns or how he interprets it and how it affects him. By choosing to make it taboo you are doing him a disservice and potentially a disservice to girls (like me) who will be on the receiving end of a guy who has learned through porn instead of healthy medium.

When I found my brother watching porn I wasn't angry but I took the time to talk to him about it, to reiterate the important of consent and what that means and what sex is like in real life and why porn isn't the best indicator of sex and the bad sides of the porn industry. I talk to him about periods, masturbation and whatever else he has question about because I think there is no better way to teach a man to have an healthy sex life and treat women well in general and in bed than to learn from a woman about topics like this.

I won't encourage my kids to watch porn but I know they will, I will teach them that they can talk to me about anything and that there is no taboo or bad question because I would rather they learn from me.

FlamingoAndJohn · 17/01/2020 07:44

The problem is that many children are seeing porn at a very young age. Not because they want to but because it is being shown to them by other children.

OhHolyJesus · 17/01/2020 07:44

I'm surprised it didn't shock you Linning but I'm glad it didn't affect you.

I agree with you in most of your points. Porn isn't sex it is about power I will (and do) talk to my child about sex and I will be protecting him from this, even through the friends he makes at school.

I think I'm more informed, less naive, and more likely to raise a child who respects others, recognised what consent is and isn't and develops good, healthy sexual relationships (with whoever he wants to) as a result of this OP, this thread and by conversations with the school.

It's been very useful.

OP posts:
DickKerrLadies · 17/01/2020 07:45

Because they are a product of a society where gender identity has been forced on them from birth and all they know is ‘pink equals girl, blue equals boy’. Until we radically change our thinking on this, and the roles we are expected to play to fit into these narrow definitions, trans people will be reasonably common.

How can we radically change our thinking on this whilst people think that if you don't fit one set of stereotypes you can 'change sex' and fit the other set of stereotypes? I don't see how that's progressive.

Datun · 17/01/2020 07:47

SSA is a propaganda organisation and is hardly a trusted source of information.

What propaganda are they promoting?

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