to be a bit resentful about counting this as annual leave

[Ceci03]

So I was given an appointment to get a nat. ins. number - have recently moved to UK. It's during work hours. It'll take me about half an hour each way from work, and then however long I have to wait, or how long it takes. Luckily it's 1pm so some of it is in my lunch (half an hour for lunch) but boss says I need to take a half day a/l. I looked it up in the company regs and it only talks about medical appointments or dentists - go in your free time if you can, if not make it up. I asked her could I make up the time by coming in early if it doesn't take too long. She's thinking about it. Just feel my a/l is getting eaten away on this kind of stuff, and that she could be bit nicer about it - have moved from another country to take this job and no accommodation given, no expenses, I had to take a whole day when my furniture came too late for me to get to work that day. Don't mind that so much. But if I'm 5 mins late I have to take it out of my lunch. But she doesn't count if I'm in early - like today I was in 20 mins early. I'm often in early, or would leave a few mins late, but if she's going to be like this, I think I'm going to be out the door dead on time and go for a coffee if I'm in early. Just finding it hard to adjust. I don't think it's the 'company' I think it's just her. Realise how lucky I was with my last boss - she was so understanding of a sick kid, or traffic, or a delayed train. there was never an issue, and so in return I never had any problem staying late or working thru lunch. Work in an office.

I’m really torn with this. I’m a strong believer in flexibility and give and take, but there is a line.

One person moved to my department to another around August last year. She had previously been employed in another department and had a fair bit of ad hoc time off. She has kids, one with special needs and a husband who works away, so I was happy to continue to support her when necessary but I was told to monitor the situation.

I continued to allow paid time off for childcare emergencies, dentist appointments, school and hospital appointments etc, but said that all authorised absences were to be logged and authorised via leave planner.

Between Sept and Dec, this employee had racked up the equivalent of three full days off with the odd hour here and there. For the year it would be much higher, but it is impossible to quantify as it was not logged prior to her move to my department. While she is hardworking and diligent, she certainly hasn’t made up anywhere near that amount of time, and it has had a knock-on effect in that my team and others are booking absences within working hours for the dentist/hospital appts etc, when they would have booked a half day previously. I had a quick chat with HR and have been advised to put a stop to this now. I will continue to allow the absences within reason, but they will no longer be paid.

Op, in the nicest possible way, I would have an honest think about the time you have taken. I am sure it will be more than you think.

If she won't give you time don't give her time. Take the half day leave, make it clear you won't be returning to work after the appointment as it is paid leave time. Is she like this with everyone?

She is within her rights but it doesn't change the fact she's being an ass.

Play by the rules but don't show them any flexibility as they haven't earned it.

Could you look for another job?

I'd be getting a new job.

Stop going in early, I never get people who do this

Haven’t read whole post - I can see a lot of green which suggests that you don’t want to hear the truth - BUT...your boss is 100% right. We can’t hAve paid time off to do our admin ffs.

I cant understand if you moved countries for this Job is it for the same company if so you should be given paid time off to get your National Insurance Number and to move house , you need this to do your job. Please talk to your HR department.

I'm not in the UK - at my last job we could go to the dentist or doctor without having to make up time, or take it as annual leave, plus leave a bit early now and again, or take another appointment - I'm beginning to see how lucky we were!!

The point I want to make is that if your boss is so inflexible don't come in early, or leave late. Work by the clock - if they can't accommodate you then don't go anything extra for them. Believe me, you'll get no thanks for it. She sounds like a piece of work to me.

I agree with the YABU camp.

You are paid to work set hours, so work them. Being there for your contracted hours and doing a good, productive job while you are there should not be mutually exclusive. It’s also not a race to the bottom - just because others might take a lend it doesn’t mean you should. I was raised that you were in and ready to work at your start time (that means computer on, drink made, loo break taken etc) and you didn’t start turning off and getting ready to leave until your end time - not strolling in at 9, fancying about for 30 mins then being out the door at 5. People seem to have poor standards these days.

Who sets your work for the day ? If you’re quiet, are you proactive about looking for work ? Or, are you reliant on your manager giving you work as and when it arises ? If so, she needs you there for your contracted hours for when it does arise.

Just as a side point I work normal office hours but my old secretary used to work 10-6 (long story there and neither of us were happy about it). It was an absolute PITA waiting for her to get in if I needed her and then she’d be in after I’d gone, so not much use if I had urgent stuff that I needed earlier in the day. Could that be why she’s asking you let her know as soon as you get in - just in case she needs you ?

You sound like you’ve made a really poor impression when you should be going all out to impress in these early, probationary days, and your attitude seems to stink (that’s how it comes across to me as a manager). I’m not surprised she’s got her eye on you. If you’re in probation I’d be worried.

As a new employee, you need to prove yourself to be trustworthy and reliable. You could be the most productive and efficient employee in the company, but if you're not actually there, you're of no benefit. I'm assuming that you have working hours expressly stated in your t's and c's. This is a contractual requirement that you are legally obliged to abide by or else you are in breach of contract. Whilst sick leave might be unavoidable & emergency time off for dependants a statutory right, it doesn't mean that it's at an acceptable level. Whilst most employers generally try to accommodate, last minute annual leave does not have to be granted, in fact any request can be refused if it isn't convenient to the business. It also only has to be paid as it is accrued in your first year of service.

You don't appear to have been particularly reliable so far and if everyone behaved as you did, I'd imagine there would be huge detriment to the business. I assume that the 'checking in' was because you had already been late a few times? Did you phone ahead to let her know that you would be late and follow any absence reporting procedures? Also did you set expectations in relation to not being able to complete work before leaving, or at least email before you left to explain and give her an idea of when it would be completed. If not, then she'll have an hour before you arrive, with no explanation to become more and more annoyed with you.

You may have a fantastic work ethic, but at the moment you're not really displaying it. If you have a probationary period, I would expect it to be extended at least to cover any periods of absence. If the relationship with your manager is that bad, it will more than likely be failed.

I had to take a whole day when my furniture came too late for me to get to work that day

This sounds to me like OP took the morning off for her furniture and ended up taking the whole day without prior agreement.

But we dont really know exactly what is going on very easy to judge one side.
If you have an issue I think you should go to your line manager and tell her your concerns

I cant understand if you moved countries for this Job is it for the same company

Based on previous posts, this is a new job, the OP has been trying to move to the UK for quite some time (back to 2018) and applied for jobs there.

have moved from another country to take this job and no accommodation given, no expenses

Unless they recruited you or you were relocated within the same company, I don't know why you would expect these benefits. If you applied for and accepted a new job in a new country, it was up to you to have everything in place for the move. If you wanted those things, you could have negotiated them or not taken this particular job.

I'm confused as to your actual level within the company, OP. You said that at your pay gpay grade you shouldn't have to tell your manager every time you're away from your desk (sounds like supervisor or mid-level manager role) but then you say you've nothing to do and your manager gives you work which makes it sound like you are entry/clerk type level.

I commute by train every morning and can either be in my office at 8:45 which gives me 15 mins to dump my jacket, make a cup of tea and wait for my pc to start up so I'm usually already working by about 8:55 or I could get the next train and be 40 minutes late but hey ho, what can I do, need to get DD to school. Well, she goes to breakfast club on those mornings so I can be at work on time. It's shit but yes, you do just need to dump the kid and run some mornings. We all do it.

I sympathise that moving countries is a lot of life admin etc but if you've been trying to move for a while now then you should know all this and be prepared as best as possible. Especially if, as seems likely given you haven't stated otherwise, you chose to move and this wasn't a company relocation type deal. If you haven't negotiated your terms with regards to "I will be moving from another country, can we agree time off/procedures etc for me to transition my home smoothly please" before accepting the job then that's on you.

It sounds like this company got you to move to the UK for their benefit so you're right to be quite annoyed

You are aware that you can be sacked at any time in your first 2 years with an employer for absolutely any reason, providing it isn't discriminatory, aren't you?

If you're having trouble getting to work for 09:00, have you thought of asking about varying your start/finish times?

I think you could have avoided a lot of the problems you're having by talking to your line manager right at the start of your employment but that ship has sailed. Instead of sitting there seething, be a grown up and speak to her now about mutual expectations and also ask how you can best get work done between the two of you, eg asking her to delegate or can you collect stuff directly from her? You're both up on your high horses and need to work it out.

I think a lot of you are being very unfair on my. Maybe I have painted a bad impression on myself but just a few points

Started in November. They wanted me to start in 3 weeks but I had to give a month notice in old job so I literally left old job on a wed and started new job on the Monday. New job knew this, jus think it's humanity to give someone a bit of leeway, my furniture was due to arrive at 10am after about a week in the job and I booked s half day but then of course they came late and I had to stay home for the day. So that's one thing,
I was about 30 mins late once I'm the first month which was completely out of my control due to flooding on the train line and trains being cancelled, I emailed he and said sorry I would be in assp.
I was away from my desk ONCE when she looked for me just after 9 as I had gone to iT to get my login sorted.
I had to bring kids to the doc twice once for each kid. They were both very sick wit high temps . I had to bring them first thing in the morning. I couldn't help it, I had to. I brought them on 2 different days, for an 8 am appt, the earliest I could get. I emailed her on both occasions . That week I wwent in for 8am and worked til 5.30.
When she said I had to start clocking in in the morning I suggested she take s half day annual leave off me to cover the 2 doc appointments for the kids, this actually over compensated for the time I missed as I prob missed 2 hours but a half day is 4 hours.
All the other days I have been on time.

It's the clocking in that I feel is demeaning.
And being told to make up 5 mins
She works 8-4
She has not been there long.
I work on a different floor to her in an office with one colleague.
She wants to do everything herself yet complains about being stressed. When I offer to do tasks she usually says no. But then lands stuff on me when she is leaving. She is then in at 8 the next day maybe feeling annoyed that I didn't finish something I don't know.
So I dunno.
There is an element of quality over quantity in her time keeping issues, like I was up where her office is, she shares with about 6 others, and they were all standing round chatting, getting tea and coffee, and were certsinly no way "ready to work" at 9am. But they were there I guess.
I hope im building trust wit her now, I haven't been late. I think sick kids and s flooded train are not unreasonable?
I assumed the nat insurance would take an hour or so but obviously if it tsked the whole pm I will take the half day. Anyway im just not getting s good feeling about this job. And it was so hard to get it I was so excited. It seems more about putting me down.

Sorry for typos! I offered to take a half day annual leave to clever the time I missed for the kids doc appointments. I also came in on a Friday from 8am to 530 cover the late train day which more than covered it. I think that should have showed I wasn't trying to take advantage. It's not the big things that bug me tho. It's the 5 min thing. Being told to make up 5 mins. It's petty

A boss like this would give me a breakdown in record time.

It sounds like some people on here would be ok with a rigid bully boss but I would not. I had a boss who was a psycho like this and I ended up being off sick for an age with a RSI - which I believe I got because I was so tense. Working under someone like this, who is shockingly bad at management, can cause a micro tension imo, hence RSI. The resentment and tension is a killer.

You have to get another job. You are not being at all unreasonable to find this boss impossible imo.

But you were BU to post in AIBU. You've had some balanced replies but AIBU can be vicious at times. Don't take it to heart.

Can you go up to her at 3pm/email her asking if there are any tasks to complete before she leaves at 4?

It sounds quite stressful having to check in everyday when in reality sometimes trains are delayed or whatever and from what you’re saying you’re not taking the piss. Do you feel this is something you could bring up in a 1 to 1? It’s incredibly frustrating now but honestly playing the game and jumping through the hoops she gives you will then stand you in good stead to request flexible working such as different hours or working from home some days.

Maybe the manager thinks you waste time at work. You started a thread on mumsnet during working hours so can't have been very productive that afternoon.

Sorry op but you applied for the job and agreed to the starting date. Nothing was forced upon you. They told you the starting date they required, you accepted, not forced labour. You don’t get paid time off for non work or sickness related appointments. That’s normal. If you work an extra 5 mins one day then that may be great, however if you’re in an hour late another day that may effect company workload, it depends on timetables. Frankly it doesn’t seem you and your employer are compatible

@Mummyoflittledragon - You take time BEFORE you start work. Dh & I managed to get all out paperwork done together he started work, because we knew what was needed before we moved here (we went from UK - Australia). It was all underway, with all the face to face things before hos start date.

I was a SAHM, so I was home for the delivery of furniture etc, but he still needed time to get a tax number (in person) a drivers license, open a bank account etc/close UK accounts etc. It is possible with planning.

No company is expected to give you paid time off for "life admin"

I think you should have put your absence/lateness in your op, so people have all the reasons as to why she is doing this. As a standalone thing, she does look micromanaging, but it's only you she is doing this too, isn't it? Would you have mentioned the lateness etc if pp hadn't mentioned it?

To be fair, you haven't had time to prove yourself, and seem to have had a fair bit of time off/lateness in 2 months. This will mean that she is keeping an eye on the way you perform now, to make sure this is a set of "one offs" and not your norm. You are probably still on probation, and so she will be keeping a close eye on you in regards to that.

It is VERY common to make up lost time either after hours, or at lunch time. My dd has separation anxiety and so I have been late once or twice. I always message ahead to my boss, and offer to make it up after my end time (I work pt hours, so leave before the business closes). Sometimes she will say "that's ok, these things happen" sometimes she will say "ok, but no need to stay later". Either way I make it MY priority to tell her how I will make up the lost time. That to me shows initiative and that I am not taking the piss. I also make up the time regardless.

If you are contracted to start at 9, like it or not you should be in your seat at 9am. Do that, send that 9am email and stop staying late. Most bosses don't even see that stuff, and you said yourself that she isn't even there, so how would she even know!? And messaging her at 8.40 does not prove you are at your desk at 9am. Don't set up an auto email as suggested by pp. That isn't what she asked for!

@differentnameforthis
It depends on how long you arrive in the country before you start working as to whether this is possible and the laws and regulations of the country. Maybe op didn’t have that luxury. Dh certainly didn’t as it was the company, which offered him the moves. It would have been a massive insult had he been expected to take time off to get a residents permit etc when he mostly finished on a Friday in one place then arrived somewhere else on the Monday. Loving that you’ve made one international move and think you know it all and can preach to me when I’ve made a few. And check our privilege against the ops. We didn’t have jobs to go to and could be there to accept the furniture van etc.