To be so sad and angry about the loss of the Erasmus scheme

[Biber]

Yesterday the government voted against an amendment to the Withdrawal Agreement Bill that would have aimed to keep the Erasmus scheme open for our youngsters.

I knew brexit woud bring losses to our children but it feels like a punch in the gut that parliament have voted so clearly against my grandchildren having the opportunity for funded study in another EU country. Just as it is being extended to people in apprentiships too.

Yes very much on "la sauce"

University is not, or should not, be for the majority
@ACautionaryTale I do wonder then Tale where you propose our teachers will come from then? As teachers for both primary and secondary not only require a degree but also a PCGE which is a masters equivalent? And unless your living under a rock you should be more then aware over the fact schools are hugely over subscribed and unable to meet demand as it is, so should teachers continue to leave the profession, and education is once again only available for those with the money and intelligence to meet its standards, who will teach? (As someone with the intelligence to be a doctor, engineer, architect is unlikely to decide to spend at least 4 years and huge amounts of money to teach)

I’m not talking about nurses and teachers.

I’m talking about the endless stream of Micky mouse degrees from so called universities which twenty years ago were tech colleges.

They should have continued to be tech colleges and taught vocational courses.

As teachers for both primary and secondary not only require a degree but also a PCGE which is a masters equivalent?

PGCE = 60 credits. You need 180 for a masters.

They should have continued to be tech colleges and taught vocational courses.

Who would you see being restricted to vocational courses in technical colleges? Who would get the RG places?

Would Eton/St Paul’s/Teddies/CLC/Winchester be encouraging their pupils to apply to Hull technical college rather than Durham, I wonder?

Would Charles Dickens school /Ryde academy/ Sandymore/Bolsover be supporting children to try for Oxbridge or would that feel unattainable and only for the affluent middle classes?
Could a 1st from a ‘Mickey mouse’ university enable greater meritocracy and escape from the spiral of poverty?

Could perhaps easier access and raised expectations mean a better educated society?

Let's hear what those MIcky Mouse degrees are then.

There is a serious point hidden here though, in that we haven't had any Government which has been serious about implementing high quality and high level vocational education - too often "vocational" education is left for those who aren't academic.

However, at a tangent, I was pleased to see that the young man who won the Professional Masterchef recently had come from a working class background and had found his feet via his vocational skill.

Would Eton/St Paul’s/Teddies/CLC/Winchester be encouraging their pupils to apply to Hull technical college rather than Durham, I wonder?

I have heard of schools like this being dismissive of anyone who doesn't apply to an RG University, yet in a field like Oceanography degrees, which is way way above being Micky Mouse, somewhere like Plymouth has a good reputation.

But why talk about Micky Mouse - Disney had shed loads of success and made money with him.

Peregrina Indeed. My point is we wouldn’t want to increase disadvantage by restricting university access to the affluent any more than it already is.

People say university should be more exclusive, but in daily life, how often do you meet someone and think, "you could do with having had less training in critical thinking and you're too well informed".

For me, the answer is never.

• I’m not talking about nurses and teachers.

I’m talking about the endless stream of Micky mouse degrees from so called universities which twenty years ago were tech colleges.*

But the growth has been in teaching a nursing. Growth in whatever you're defining as Mickey Mouse degrees (Media Studies, Computer Games Design I assume? Have you any idea how huge those industries are btw?) has been much lower.

But hey, don't let boring things like facts get in the way!

@PhoneLock hence I didnt state it was a masters qualification, but is done in leu of a masters if you intend to teach or you can do a PGDE which is 120 credits, or top up a PGCE to a full masters if wanted. But it does use Masters funding so many have the option to do a PG(C/D)E and convert it to MA Education OR to do a Masters.

@Peregrina I must admit this whole "vocational" being less then strict academic subjects makes me chuckle, as I knew a few individuals who studied VFX and concept art at university (very vocational subjects) who since graduating have worked on some very big BLOCKBUSTER videogames since they graduated and as such have made insane incomes before reaching 30. MANY vocational subjects still require a huge amount of skill and dedication to be made into any form of successful career, but instead of relying on a lot of time reading research, journals and traditional academic activities, they instead require putting ALOT of physical hours into practice and gaining experience and self learning.

If you really wanna become technical even Accounting is a vocational subject, yet outside university which gives some exemptions to the official exams, would cost a LOT to self fund through the official qualifications and become more then just a book keeper.

Interesting sentiments here.

I worked for a Russell Group for over ten years, and as part of my role, I was involved with Erasmus exchanges.

The reality is that the only British students that really benefit from Erasmus are language or bilingual students because fluency in the host country language is usually mandatory. There were some exchanges that received no applications whatsoever for the entire time I worked at the institution. Erasmus, by far, benefits European students to the detriment to British ones, largely because English is a global language and successive British governments and other cultural forces have consistently refused to support appropriate foreign language instruction in British schools.

By contrast, the exchanges with Australian, Canadian and American universities were so oversubscribed that only students with a first in their initial year, and excellent A level results, could apply.

Let's hear what those MIcky Mouse degrees are then. Given recent interactions I have had with 3rd years completing their dissertations I fear it may be many of them!

I decided to dip my toe back into teaching and offered coaching/mentoring in my subject area (human physiology / sport psychology - I was a multi disciplinarian). I stopped when I realised just how poor some of the materials are, how lax the methodologies are and how clueless the students are compared to my time... and that was only 20 years ago!

The recent changes, students now being consumers, Universities, like FE colleges before them, losing their meaningful independence, has had some dreadful consequences that will take a few years / decades to sort out!

Meanwhile all eyes will be on accessibility rather than appropriate entry requirements!

* I’m not talking about nurses and teachers.

Yes, the same sort of response you get when you challenge racists - "Oh, I don't mean you."

Personally I am glad that teaching and nursing are now graduate entry jobs. I am old enough to remember when you could get into teaching with 5 O levels, and large numbers of girls were pushed into it, regardless of how suitable they were. And yes, you can say that some people who weren't the most academic could make good teachers, but in my experience those who were in this category pulled out all the stops to get their A levels, just to show they were up to it.

Personally I'm just worried about the impact on Brexit on education particularly university level full stop. Not having used erasmus myself but knowing plenty of brilliant erasmus students, I find it inconceivable that the government may find it not worth continuing.

Not only erasmus, but a lot of post graduate research funding comes from the EU, and can as such allow brilliant students who lack financial means to complete a PhD and produce groundbreaking research, which from leaving the EU and breaking ties and availability of this funding is going to hugely limit research. I wonder if the gov. Is going to replace the millions provided to the UK for research from it's own pocket? Also the limitation of freedom of movement, UK universities benefit hugely from the ability to be able to hire and host academics trained around the world, but also the ease that many european academics can move to follow research opportunities or experiences, as many different countries prioritise different areas of research and thus funding varieties, and thus leaving the UK without the ease of access to academics whom hold strengths that are not developed within the UK which is essential for the development and increase of knowledge.

I couldn't give two shits. I'm working class and northern. I've seen how training opportunities and job progression for non graduates has been decimated and become prohibitively expensive since the new ascension states joined alongside stagnating wages and deteriorating conditions.

The sort of people moaning about this are the sort of people who refused to listen to us when we told them it was hurting us, just crowed about how much they were saving with their cheap foreign nanny/plumber/cleaner/gardener.

Frankly I couldn't give two shits that a load of rich kids may have some extra cost and inconvenience for their jolly abroad.

@Peregrina fully agree about teaching and people who want to teach.

@CuriousaboutSamphire unfortunately standards will vary across institutions, but that can be said for anything really. But its worth bearing in mind that although one subject may be poor, another subject in the same institution may be incredibly well respected and highly desirable.

@LittleDragon I would hope so. Unfortunately it was facebook encounters in a variety of subjects that started me thinking about it. So I am not 100 % certain that it is small issue. And I am talking about a significant lack: leading questions, lack of null hypothesis, etc.

I worked for a Russell Group for over ten years

I still do and, in my STEM biased experience, what you have said reflects the current situation.

@Amylox the issue has nothing to do with the individuals financial means, if anything it's about providing opportunities to those who would not have the opportunity otherwise.

Likewise because you chose not to follow a path of higher education, it is shallow to suggest that opportunities should not be provided to others who do so.
The point of current structure of universities is to remove barriers caused by household income and to attempt to make it accessible to all.

@PhoneLock but I wonder if that reflects the current attitude towards languages [and reflects current attitudes of "little england"] as unnecessary as English is perceived as "superiour" so why do people need to waste time and put hard work into learning another language...
I personally would have loved to learn another language as much of my research niche is located outside the UK due to different priorities in research.
I remember when twinning between counties and counties abroad was still very active and remember the reason it stopped. Because although british teenagers where happy to go to the receptive country and stay with a host family, they started to refuse the children of their host families the same opportunities, making the whole situation rather unfair and bias. I was positively gutted when it had to be stopped (specifically in my county) and considered it really telling of the attitudes within britain at the time (again of the individuals involved and attempting not to generalise, although seeing current political values it could have been the beginning)

Talking of town twinning - DH who didn't go to University, got a lot out of town twinning visits - both going over to Belgium and having a Belgian family back. They used particularly to encourage young people on apprenticeships with local firms from what he recalls.

@Amylox

R. Murdoch, a Worker and an Immigrant are at a table with 20 cookies.

Murdoch takes 19 cookies but warns the worker "Watch out! that migrant is going to steal your cookie"

UK employers decided not to re invest after the Global financial crash, instead capped wages across the board inc skilled workers, whilst awarding themselves huge wage rises, add in Austerity that frozen benefits/public sector wages and this is the cause of your woe's.

But you blame the middle classes (who pay the bulk of income tax) and migrants

as English is perceived as "superiour" so why do people need to waste time and put hard work into learning another language..

I think you are reading too much into it. I don't think English speaking students give it that much thought. They don't bother spending time and effort on learning another language because, generally speaking, they don't need to, not because they regard English as being superior to any other language. If they have a specific need, they will learn.

I personally would have loved to learn another language as much of my research niche is located outside the UK due to different priorities in research.

Then why didn't you?

as English is perceived as "superiour" so why do people need to waste time and put hard work into learning another language..

People speaking english might feel it's superior but people who speak other langages dont.They do learn it because its so widely spoken. This is a leftover of the Empire (whether its good or not, I leave that for you to decide).

This is also massively missing the point that when you learn another langage you dint just learn words. You learn a culture and a way to see the world. Did you know for example that depending on which langage you think, you have a different feel of what time is (aka it goes slower or quicker?). Having gendered words again gives a different 'feel' to things etc....
Or in english, you ARE hungry but in french you HAVE hunger. Can you see the deep difference there is in how hunger is perceived in the two langages?
So will it be a waste of time to learn another langage? Never because of the way it will help that person see the world on a different rather than one way, the english way....