To be so sad and angry about the loss of the Erasmus scheme

[Biber]

Yesterday the government voted against an amendment to the Withdrawal Agreement Bill that would have aimed to keep the Erasmus scheme open for our youngsters.

I knew brexit woud bring losses to our children but it feels like a punch in the gut that parliament have voted so clearly against my grandchildren having the opportunity for funded study in another EU country. Just as it is being extended to people in apprentiships too.

@madambee, switzerland might not be in the EU but it has many many agreements with the EU, incl the free movement of people and goods. (I mean when driving from Geneva to france, I didnt even notice I had crossed the border. Its my phone telling me that I was in france and using the french network that alerted me to it. You dint even have that with the UK still in the EU because the UK isnt part of the Shengen zone....YOu still have t pass border control.)

You cant compare that to what the current UK government is trying to put in place.

MadameBee that is sad indeed and unfortunately until we make foreign languages a compulsory part of the school curriculum from an early age many kids will duck out of them as soon as they can as they are perceived to be 'difficult'. We should start teaching foreign languages in an informal way at primary school, make it fun and normal.

We also need to rethink how it's taught. We spend too much time and place too much emphasis on the grammar, sentence construction, etc at too young an age, not to mention obsessing about irrelevances, such as asking the way to the town hall. I have a friend who is a professional German translator and he says they have a far more relaxed/realistic approach to language learning in some other countries which is why a lot of people speak "pigeon English", ie they can communicate, but often the sentence is in the wrong order, etc. Completely useless for anything formal like drafting a contract, but easily enough to actually communicate on a day to day basis working alongside others etc. He tells me we try to hard to get it "perfect" and in doing so, it turns people off.

@Kazzyhoward, the thing is most other langauge has a comple grammar so they have to learn grammar to speak their langauge. German is actually an excellent example of it.

English on the other side is a simple langauge woth few grammatical rules. You dont need grammar to be able to speak english. So grammar is hardly taught in th uk but when children end up learning a foreign lanaguage, they end up HAVING to learn said grammar. Othersie, how on earth will you know which ending to use in german (remembering that not usig those could make your sentence not understandable or people will understand the wrong thing - just just 'pigeon german' iyswim).

sorry it was meant to be COMPLEX not complete grammar

Swiss universities do Erasmus style exchanges with British universities. My DD went to University in Geneva. They negotiate and pay to be part of the Erasmus family. We are insular and stupid and universities will have to work hard to maintain these valuable exchanges. My DD thought going abroad was her greatest achievement at university! You mature and get educated!

There is not complex grammar at primary level. Just a great shortage of teachers because - everyone gives up on languages. My DD loved languages and put the effort in. Others won’t bother.

Another friend tells me this:

MOSS is really not user friendly ... BUT it's HMRC designed and implemented, and a UK way of dealing with VAT on digital products in the EU (pdf patterns, music downloads, etc - the kind of things individuals might sell on etsy or soundcloud).

Each state sets its own VAT rules, including the UK, and the EU doesn't, as far as I'm aware, infringe on its members sovereignty in their taxes ! What the EU HAS done is Intrastat VAT, which have allowed a much easier movement of goods and services by allowing business to claim/repay VAT in their home country.

It's part of Brexit, that's what the majority voted for.

My stepson has just done his term abroad.
He loved it. It's all very sad.

Bubbles and there you have it - a vicious circle, fewer students = fewer teachers.... and so ad infinitum.

@madambee

Concerning Erasmus, I cannot see why your government should vote against it. Is it because you don't want to receive students in exchange for those you send abroad? Why?

Quite possibly that's part of it, but generally, an educated population is NOT what this government want. Far easier to bring in a totalitarian state with an uneducated populace.

The votes for brexit and the tories came predominantly from the less educated.

switzerland might not be in the EU but it has many many agreements with the EU,

As I expect you do, I sincerely hope that in time your politicians will come to their senses and negotiate deals with EU. I hope that the current vilifiction of the EU is break up speak and to satisfy the brexiteers.

I'm sure you need to teach language from early on, but in your defence i think the reason so many students aren't interested in learning the language abroad, is that it is so easy to get by in English, so the incentive is not there.

The votes for brexit and the tories came predominantly from the less educated.

And that's so scary and presumably why you have a tory government and the US has Trump.

Gutted, I took part in one and wanted my kids to have the option. I think unis might be able to develop their own anyway but it will be more complicated and expensive no doubt.

Even more gutted about taking out the commitment to family reunion for unaccompanied refugee children. What is wrong with our country. Leave or remain surely we have a responsibility to reunite children with their families. Makes me sick.

Btw a few none-eu members are in the Erasmus scheme, Switzerland is one, so it is doable to negotiate

Switzerland has a massive advantage in negotiations for participation in EU research programmes - they have the large hadron collider. Physics research depends on access to it, which is why both the EU and Switzerland are trying to maintain cooperation. Even then it looks unlikely that Switzerland will meet the deadline for associate membership of the next phase of Horizon Europe, because these negotiations are complex and time-consuming.

I work at a university in the EU and the Erasmus scheme has been so good for our students - they always come back much more mature and proficient in languages. Of course they will still be taking part, just not in the UK where students will continue to miss out.

You don’t know me and you don’t know my background.

I did come from a disadvantaged background but I had the intelligence to see education was the way out and made the most of it.

I firmly believe if you are bright enough you will find a way. And if you aren’t or don’t then it probably wasn’t for you in the first place.

It just feels like the start of all the shit to come. My Erasmus year was one of the best things I've ever done and I'm deeply saddened that my children will not have that opportunity. God, I'm not sure how I'm going to make it through 2020.

I think students will still go on exchanges though. Just not under something called “Erasmus”

I’m beginning to wonder if the split between Brexit and remain is actually a reflection over attitude.

Posters on here who are lamenting the not yet even announced eradication of Erasmus seem to be focusing on the fact it was easier. Whilst other like me are saying if you still want an exchange and are willing to make an effort, then you’ll still be able to do one (assuming Erasmus does go which I’m not convinced it will)

I actually see the latter as an opportunity to distinguish myself from the flock as someone who is willing to go the extra mile to find things out an arrange them and over come adverse background myself to those who neeed help to do so.

Puts me in a better position than others which I think is a good thing.

The cream rises to the top.

Yeah well, sucks to be you guys right now, but y'all voted for it. Byeeeeeee!!

I hear you brits who think you are 'good' at languages every day - you all suck at it.

How depressing to deliberately impoverish and isolate your country like this.

Yeah well, sucks to be you guys right now, but y'all voted for it. Byeeeeeee!!

What's the point? After 3+ bloody years of such trite, twattishness, what is the fucking point?

Livefornaps - what a ridiculous over generalised comment.

Comments like that explain why it is so difficult to encourage young people to learn a language.

I see I psoted too soon, that second 'soundbite' was even more, erm, well, even more something !

Pshaw!