To think my daughter shouldn't have to share a room with a boy!

[GColdtimer]

Because if you are in Oxfordshire, the council thinks schools should facilitate mixed sex dorm rooms for residential trips, as well as allowing mixed sex loos, changing rooms and sports.

It's on this thread thread

Why is it that Littledragon can get that men don’t want to be exposed to women in private spaces but refuses to acknowledge that girls have the same wish for privacy but with added safety concerns ?

My main concern with all this is actually the subtle erosion of boundaries. Bossy notices telling women and girls to check their thinking if they think someone is in the wrong toilets (currently on display at Oxford University for example), girls being removed from their changing rooms if they are not happy with males in there, all of us being gaslit into saying things that aren’t true - all of this is telling women and girls that their instincts and boundaries are wrong.

My instincts and boundaries keep me safe every day. I’m passing them on to my children as the most important tools in their armoury when keeping themselves safe. And now schools are trying actively to undo that work. Fuck that.

Trans people are not the threat.

MEN are the threat.

How do we keep MEN (not transwomen) separated from women (including transwomen)?

That's what women's rights are about.

People just don't get it and it's so simple I don't know why they can't see it.

I agree with the Pp that shared changing and toilets where adults and children are mixed may be inappropriate but that's unlikely to happen

Why? Why do you think it's unlikely to happen? That is exactly where this is going. It starts with grooming children in school to accept it.

Why can't you see that?

I honestly don't think a little boy is going to identify as a girl for years, dress as a girl, look like a girl, wear makeup and be bullied by classmates, just so he can 'gain private access to your little girl'.

Little girls don't wear make up and little boys don't spend years identifying as girls' unless they've been exposed to dubious adult ideas around 'gender identities' which they shouldn't be.

Who is talking about 'little boys' anyway. We're talking about teenagers, some practically grown men. Stop hiding behind children.

Its hugely counter intuitive and really mocks the bullying and harassment many transgender children experience from peers and adults which can have massively damaging effects on them as they mature, particularly on mental health.

Once again, there are no 'transgender'; children, just children being inappropriately exposed to adult beliefs by dodgy adults.

I really think common sense should be applied to this situation.

Yes, it should, humans cannot change sex, children should be told this. Facilities should be segregated by sex.

This is male or female has been transitioning for a long time, dresses and acts in a masculine or feminine way and is their transitioning gender in everything but genitals then I highly doubt there doing it for any reason other then they're firm believe that they're gender at birth is not reflective on their gender identity.

If they've been doing it for years the adults in their life should be scrutinised.

Mostly though they suddenly decide they are 'trans' in their teens because of peer pressure and/or online grooming.

Psychological theory argues that by approx 8 years old children will have decided on their gender identity male/female and once puberty hits that gender identity is unlikely to change.

This is dangerously wrong.

80-90% of pre-pubescent children who experience distress or confusion about their sex grow out of it if allowed to go through puberty and not experimented on with puberty blockers.

The only exception would be gender fluidity as they may change between identifying as male/female then it makes the most sense for them to prominently to share with their birth gender cohort as they will unlikely have a physical or legal transition to another gender.

Meaningless waffle. Nobody even has a bloody birth 'gender' We have sexes, there are two, male and female, they can't be changed.

We separate the sexes when half naked for safety, privacy and dignity. Made up 'gender identities' which there isn't even any evidence for the existence of are irrelevant.

Stop foisting your religion on other people's children.

the process of transitioning

Yes there seems to be an attitude that this is black and white definite situation.

80% of children/ teens desist.

These approaches and rules, especially around things like toilet use and pronouns actually 'affirm' a 'transition'. So a boy could be accessing the girls toilets and then never transition. Whereas the official approach by the nhs is not affirmation, more watchful waiting.

And what does transition mean under the "umbrella" and also where people are campaigning for self id, and the great majority of transwomen do not get genital surgery?

For children and teens "transition" literally means just using a different name, pronouns and clothes / hair etc. Costume.

How the adults around them treat them can either help to keep all options open or further push them towards medical transition as an adult.

Also, let's not forget a huge number of yp who are trans identifying have concurrent mental health difficulties and autism, or have suffered from CSA.

This is not rainbows and glitter, going to the prom in a dress and getting press attention for being brave and stunning. This is safeguarding girls and also all children with these 'identity issues.' There's an issue in CAHMS in that as soon as gender identity becomes a "thing" it seems to trump all other needs and issues.

It's worth listening to Michele Moore describe these at the Newcastle meeting last June; it has only recently been put up as she was receiving so much vilification for speaking about this issue.

Littledragongirl just picking up on one point about "a school would know....". Under the Oxfordshire policy any child who announces they are "trans" (of which there is a very broad definition) should be treated at the gender they identify with. And the school does not have to inform the parents. Your posts show your naivety and blatant disregard for safeguarding and the concept of consent.

@CallofDoodee
Theory on gender development

link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4419-7988-9_25#page-1
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6527216?dopt=Abstract
journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.0963-7214.2004.00276.x
Theory on Transsexual gender development (hint they gender develops the same way, only transsexual individuals identify for the opposite gender then that they where biologically assigned at birth)

www.insider.com/transgender-kids-develop-gender-identity-like-non-trans-kids-research-2019-11
www.pnas.org/content/116/49/24480

Human rights centre info sheet on transgender > www.hrc.org/resources/transgender-children-and-youth-understanding-the-basics

From the research we can conclude that transexual children identify psychologically with the gender they identify with and do not in fact identify with the gender they are biologically assigned at birth.

@CallofDoodee
"If, on the other hand, trans women are thought of as a subset within ‘women’ – much like the group ‘white women’, for example – then this just raises the question of why some women’s safety should take precedence over that of others, especially when the risk allegedly posed to cis women by trans women seems to be purely theoretical – not supported by evidence – while the risk to trans women from cis men is beyond doubt. The World Health Organisation's systematic review of violence motivated by perception of sexual orientation and gender identity in 2017 found that transgender people suffer from a disproportionately high prevalence of physical and sexual violence" (www.versobooks.com/blogs/4090-i-m-not-transphobic-but-a-feminist-case-against-the-feminist-case-against-trans-inclusivity)

T0tallyfucked Males can simply say they are a girl and within a very short time, be permitted to join the females in the female only space

I mean some common sense should be used really, I would expect the school to ensure there is a paper trail, medical evidence and other such support that the child is transitioning and hasn't stated on a whim that they have decided that day to female/male and thus are enabled access to the opposite sex. Which realistically DOES NOT HAPPEN. A child is not able to state their gender one day and given access to female/male restricted spaces the next day.

Because, in short, trans women are different from cis men. The definitive difference is that trans women see themselves as women or even as female, and feel most comfortable navigating the social world with this gender presentation – many trans women report having this experience from very early childhood. There is clearly a difference between the experience of a child who is treated by others in ways that are characteristic of boys and also feels like a boy, and a child who is treated by others in ways that are characteristic of boys whilst feeling that they are really a girl. It is, to say the very least, not obvious that gender identity makes no difference to the way in which either biological and social factors manifest themselves. (quoted from www.versobooks.com/blogs/4090-i-m-not-transphobic-but-a-feminist-case-against-the-feminist-case-against-trans-inclusivity)

I wonder then.. should a female lesbien or a male gay child not be able to change with individuals of the same gender? As realistically they are more of a danger due to potentially being sexually aroused by their peers? What about bisexuals? I mean realistically the only solution is to allow all children individual toilets and changing rooms as that is the only way to project them surely?

Ultimately the issue is that western society has allowed boys to be socially conditioned to believe they are superior and have the right to abuse a female. No One is BORN with this mentally, it the result of social conditioning by society. There are matriarchal societies on the earth, and men would by no means feel they are a right to violate any female. The biggest issue here the social conditioning of males and male focused behaviours.

No body is suggesting the removal of safeguards and policies. The removal of Bigotry and homophobia yes, but not safe practice. And inclusion of transsexual children does not amount to the same as removing safeguarding if implemented with some common sense and a dash of intelligence.

Girls at risk from lesbians eh, littledragon.

Good to see you are concerned about homophobia.

YADNBU OP

Do we have to wait until:
a young girl becomes pregnant?
a young girl is sexually assaulted?
a young girl is the subject of voyeurism?

These things have and are happening.

But clearly girls (and women's) rights to self-determination, dignity, privacy and respect are unimportant in a culture where girls and women are routinely assaulted, spied upon, or murdered because they are female .

@NeurotrashWarrior

Your point highlights why there are two terms transsexual - which is a individual who seeks medical support to transition (which is more common in the UK due to the NHS)
And transgendered which is people who chose to not undergo medical assistance to transition (which is more common in countries which require paid health care and such medication and surgery is not covered by health insurance). There should be differentiation between these two terminologies.

Also there is much debate what came first the mental health or the gender identity? Many RESEACHERS have identified that gender identity is formed prepubescence and is gradually formed between the ages of 3-8, but usually gender is stable around 6 years old. The gender identity of transsexual/gendered children is the same as those of the gender they identify as and not biologically assigned. This would support thus supports the idea that psychologically a transsexual individual is psychologically male/female regardless of their sex assigned at birth. (this is not accounting for Autism, due to it being a neurodevelopmental disorder and present from birth).

*MEN are the threat.

How do we keep MEN (not transwomen) separated from women (including transwomen)?*

Some men are a threat,yes. Men have a penis which they may use to rape another person, trans women also have a penis.

What is different about a trans woman's penis that renders them not to be a risk?

Trans women is two words because that's what auto correct does to it before mnhq or anybody objects.

LittleDragonGirl do you think that all sex segregation should be removed everywhere and that all males should be able to share with females wherever they want?

Years ago I saw that transsexualism was acceptable in Iran where homosexuality is illegal.

It does not follow that transgender acceptance is not bigoted or homophobic. It can be, because parents or children can feel that it is more acceptable to be “trans” than be homosexual. To judge by the number of trans women who then claim to be lesbian, I’d say that in a lot of cases it looks much like a very male desire to access women and their bodies.

That's rather homophobic Little
Trans is not a sexual orientation and is not comparable with the LGB community.

You are ignoring reality why?
Humans cannot change sex or do you think they can?
The huge majority of sexual assaults are committed by heterosexual males against females. That's one of the reasons spaces are segregated by sex.

I still cant believe you would disregard the boundaries of 30 girls in a class to protect the feelings of 1 boy

How do we keep MEN (not transwomen) separated from women (including transwomen)?

That's what women's rights are about.

People just don't get it and it's so simple I don't know why they can't see it.

But fairenuff transwomen aren't biologically women - and most of them are genitally male. And some of them till use their genitals in a male sexual way - pentration (look up "Karen White" for a particularly nasty example of this).

(My personal view, from knowing & working with a couple of transwomen is that they're not male/men in most ways, but they're not the same as women either - they're transwomen).

Furthermore, so many organisations who really should know better, are allowing self-identification (which is NOT a legally protected characteristic) with very few (if any) checks or balances.

So until men come with a foolproof certificate indicating that they are genuinely gender dysphoric, and have NO interest in retaining any male genitals AND masculine behaviour, women and girls need safeguards.

And we need to be able to talk about those safeguards without being attacked for "transphobia."

@Binterested that is the logic that this thread seems to be following, Having numerous gay and lesbian friends, I am fully aware they have never posed a danger to their peers, due to self restraint and learnt appropriate behaviour. The same as the many trans individuals I know. You can't claim one is a danger and then ignore the other as that is choosing to hide behind a veil of self righteous bigotry.

Men and Boys are MORE then capible of self restraint if taught it. Men and boys are more then capible of not being a danger or feel superiour to women if they are taught to be equal. But unfortunately boys are often conditioned from birth to view gender inequalities such as... angry fathers getting away with it, fathers going out and ignoring the mothers wishes, the mother being the main homemaker and being dependent on the working father. All these things and MANY more impact how children view gender roles as they grow up. But the difference is A male transitioning to female would instead of associaiting from the fathers or male role model would instead associate and learn from the mother or female role models. The same way a biologically assigned male or female would. The research evidence to this is supplied further up.

Have we had 'but what about all those dangerous predatory teenage lesbians' yet as a reason why girls should tolerate boys in female spaces?

Oh good. #bingocard

Mind you, combining it with faux concern about homophobia is an original twist I must say...

Well it’s interesting that in terms of pure looks that trans women most often identify with the women of the 1980s in Coronation St. One of the striking thins regarding trans women is how very unfeminine they can appear both in dress, attitude and appearance. The role models being drawn on would seem rather superficial in many cases, seeking to pathologise or grossly caricature women and their sexuality.

I do not see anything like this in homosexual men or women.

Little, it would be pertinent to watch the link I posted.

But also, why is it assumed that a child who has "gender dysphoria" must transition as the cure?

A number of - mostly women - have been writing about this, that it wasn't the solution. Some have detransitioned some never transitioned and still deal with GD but deal with it differently.

This is all a matter of perspective and opinion, medically and psychologically.

Why can't a boy/ man be "feminine?" Oh homophobia...

To be clear, Michele Moore in my link has been researching gender identity and dysphoria in children and teens for years and has found no hard science for it.

But lots of harm done and children and yp severely let down by the system.

But the difference is A male transitioning to female would instead of associaiting from the fathers or male role model would instead associate and learn from the mother or female role models.

Makes who identify as trans commit crime at the same level as those that don’t, so I’m afraid you’re completely wrong.

The same way a biologically assigned male or female would. The research evidence to this is supplied further up

I’m looking for peer on peer reviewed studies and evidence, not those provided by those with links to trans positive organisations.

Dolorabelle I know and agree with what you say.

But the debate really needs to move away from transpeople being a threat to men being a threat.

I do believe that genuine transwomen don't want to harm women. Unfortunately they have been thrown under the bus in the race for men to pretend to be trans to access women and children.

Men have also taken advantage of this to access womens' sports etc.

That's why I ask if anyone is in favour of removing sex segregated spaces everywhere.

@PityParty4one

LGBT(Q)
Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans (questioning)

lgbt.foundation/

But a hetrosexual man and a transexual women are not the same thing. A hetro male has identified and been influenced by male role models and male social influences throughout life. A transexual women has been been influenced by female role models and female social influences throughout life.

And im not saying that grown men and little girls should be combined in same sex changing rooms, please use a little common sense. And neither have a i stated that.

Maybe what should be implimented then Is a greater clarity of gender identification which would remove the ability to one day identify as the opposite gender and be able to access male/female seperated places over night? Which if we removed homophobia and bigotry, and children felt able to voice their identity from the formation of their gender identity would be much easier to do. The issue with the above is the issue that some children may have felt unable to disclose their gender identity (which if you look their is research into how that then is linked to forming mental health issues) and thus when they finally do feel able to disclose, is it right to make them feel persecuted and judged and questioned and asked to prove themselves? Which is turn leads to children again trying to hide their gender identity and thus causes the problems of them seemingly suddenly voicing their identity.

but if you consider that a typical Transitioning male to female child psychologically identifies as female, have been influenced by female role models and societal values, then you are in essencing making a female change and interact with males. There is also a disproportionately high amount of sexual violence against transexual women by hetro males. So are transexual women worth less? Do they deserve less protection? Because they are trying to get to a place of psychological resolution by aligning their psychological self with their physical self? As changing their physical self is easier then psychological.

EVIDENCE
"In the last 12 months alone, 7.5 per cent of women have experienced domestic violence (Office for National
Statistics, 2017). Trans women are at heightened risk: Stonewall and YouGov’s 2018 research, LGBT in Britain: Home
and Communities (2018), found that in the same period, 16 per cent had experienced domestic abuse from a partner.
Limited research exists into trans women’s experiences of sexual violence in Britain today. " www.stonewall.org.uk/system/files/stonewall_and_nfpsynergy_report.pdf

Where are these matriarchal societies that women never get abused? I wouldn’t mind living there.

What I find awful about this thread is that the parents on here so vocal about the dangers of a trans kids seem ignorant to the equally real possibility that their children could be pressured into sexual contact with people of the same sex. Although girls are at more risk from boys, sexual abuse between LGBT teens is also a very real risk and the truth is that are kids are likely to be out there and doing it before they come out as part of their normal exploration into sexuality. I've watched some LGBT adults talk about the lack of support they got from parents speaking about same sex relationships and how they'd do anything to prevent their girls from getting pregnant or their boys from fatherhood not knowing the wild sexual stuff they were doing with people of the same sex and the heavy and unhealthy relationships they were in. Parents always assumed the partners were just friends and would unknowingly encourage the relationship to be more suffocating.

Personally I have a boy with special needs so he is already vulnerable to unhealthy relationships of all sorts. He is also more likely to violate consent or cause negative interactions with potential partners because of his ASD. All men are also potential victims of domestic and sexual abuse from men and women. We are seeing more and more cases of teenage boys groomed by adult women in authority of them. While my son is at less risk than a girl I would take the same approach with any daughter of reminding them about body ownership and minding boundaries and try to be that person they can come to if things go wrong as well as make sure they have other people who can do the same.

I think my way is a better way to go to prevent all these scary things and give a way forward if it does happen then isolating a child because they are trans and making them out to be some sort of molester just because they have balls. It just seems cruel after a while.

It boils down to this. Any male bodied person that insists on being in a female only area, when they are aware that there is the slightest possibility that their presence will cause distress and discomfort to a single female, is exactly the kind of male that shouldn’t be in that space. No one has the right to tell a female that she has no right to decide on her boundaries.