To think my daughter shouldn't have to share a room with a boy!

[GColdtimer]

Because if you are in Oxfordshire, the council thinks schools should facilitate mixed sex dorm rooms for residential trips, as well as allowing mixed sex loos, changing rooms and sports.

It's on this thread thread

Fucking hell GColdtimer.

YADNBU. Complain to everyone going - MPs, Minister for Women and Equalities, SofS for Education and Chief Exec and Leader of the Council. It's a gross invasion of girl's privacy and a huge safeguarding risk.

Sick of this woke crap putting girl's safety at risk.

Exactly, drspouse. Bully, harassment and sexual incidents never happen at secondary school. The trans child will be absolutely fine undressing and sharing shower facilities with their male natal peers. And sleeping with an unsupervised group of boys. What could possibly go wrong?

FWIW, my friend's school has a trans child in the year 2 class. MtF. So far, its just a name and long hair. (Gender neutral uniform). They still use the male toilets for safeguarding reasons.

I have a 14 year old daughter.

She - like many girls of her age - is hugely self-conscious about her changing body. She is very self-conscious around everyone, me, her dad, her brothers, her female friends. She hates things like changing for PE.

If she knew that for her upcoming D of E expedition she'd be expected to share a tent with a transgirl or dress/undress in front of a transgirl her response would be "Well I'm just not going then". Not because she's got some sort of inbuilt hatred for people, but because the lack of privacy around male-bodied people would be a deal breaker.

Her best friend is Muslim. She wouldn't be allowed to go either because of religious concerns about being in close proximity to male bodied people.

It's SO much more than just the risk of girls getting pregnant. It's throwing the rights of people like my daughter and her friend to privacy and to be in a single-sex environment under the bus to accommodate one child.

I am hugely supporting of the "third space" option - single sex accommodation for males/females with the inclusive options of single rooms or separate bathrooms for those who feel they are the opposite sex to their biology.

@LoveNote if we are worried about keeping our girls safe from pesky males, arent they more at risk from the ADULTS in charge of them?

not necessarily - depends on the adults and the children.
In the 70's, child sexual abuse was much less reported, but it still happened - perpetrated by adults and children. As SA generally became less of a taboo subject, abuse by peers was still taboo and swept under the carpet.
At a group therapy course, years later, although the facilitator kept banging on about 'big nasty men', 25% had been abused by siblings and/or peers within a few years of their own age. The facilitator initially denied that this happened.

I can only imagine that 50 years on, with the availablity of online porn, the situation has become worse. THe only thing that is likely to have improved is that with the subject being less of a taboo, #metoo, etc that young girls are more aware of boundaries and what SA is.

Aargh I made a reverse mistake there but the same applies.

I really don't think that the main problem is the risk to girls on residential trips (although the risk is obviously there and needs to be properly assessed). The bigger problem is the grooming.

I don't think that many teenage boys would falsely id as trans in order to share with girls. But I do know that plenty of men will. So the real risk is that children are groomed into accepting men into their sex segregated spaces when they are adults.

If we remove all sex segregation everywhere, all men will be able to share with all women and girls. That's where the massive risk lies.

No-one on this thread has said that they are in favour of removing all sex segregated spaces everywhere. No-one. Not even those who support mixed sex facilities in schools and residentials.

So we really do need to object on the grounds that children are being groomed and I would suggest that parents find out what the policy is in their school and then complain to Ofsted which seem to be the only organisation schools fear more than Mermaids.

Really?

I honestly don't think a little boy is going to identify as a girl for years, dress as a girl, look like a girl, wear makeup and be bullied by classmates, just so he can 'gain private access to your little girl'. Its hugely counter intuitive and really mocks the bullying and harassment many transgender children experience from peers and adults which can have massively damaging effects on them as they mature, particularly on mental health.

I really think common sense should be applied to this situation. This is male or female has been transitioning for a long time, dresses and acts in a masculine or feminine way and is their transitioning gender in everything but genitals then I highly doubt there doing it for any reason other then they're firm believe that they're gender at birth is not reflective on their gender identity. Psychological theory argues that by approx 8 years old children will have decided on their gender identity male/female and once puberty hits that gender identity is unlikely to change.

The only exception would be gender fluidity as they may change between identifying as male/female then it makes the most sense for them to prominently to share with their birth gender cohort as they will unlikely have a physical or legal transition to another gender.

a little boy is going to identify as a girl for years, dress as a girl, look like a girl, wear makeup and be bullied by classmates, just so he can 'gain private access to your little girl'.

None of that actually changes the little boys sex so why should he have access to female spaces at all?

For the rest of hour post how do we tell a "real" trans from fake?

I am in the ladies loo. Male presenting as female comes in. I have no idea for how long he has been trans. I have no idea if he us a real trans or fake. He could have decided to dress that way that day simply so he could get his rivks off in the ladies loo.
Or he could have transitioned 10 years ago and just want to pee.

How are we supposed to know?
Do we have to wait until a female is sexually assaulted by a fake trans and then go " oh look hes fake so you cant blamd true trans"
How many females need to be sexually assaulted for it to be enough?

I agree with the Pp that shared changing and toilets where adults and children are mixed may be inappropriate but that's unlikely to happen, although I have zero issue with a transitioning person using the toilets they identify with in public places.

Realistically working from statistics children are MUCH more likely to be abused by a family member or family acquaintance then a stranger much less so then by a stranger is a public toilets where apart from sharing the same space the stranger isnt going to be privy to seeing anyone else in a state of undress (unless I've missed something and people genuinely use public toilets with the doors wide open 🤔).
I know many trans individuals, some transitioned and some in the process and none of them made the decision to do so for any reason other to feel comfortable within their own identity, as due to the amount of bullying and homophobic abuse they have faced any one doing it for any other reason would have given up as it's absolutely horrific what they face. I was also fortunately to attend a institute of higher education which has multiple mixed toileting facilities (including in their student union where they held club nights) and fir all the drama that goes with club nights, being harassed inappropriately in the toilet was not one of them. Likewise in the rest of the university where transitioning individuals where allowed to use the toilet of there identifying gender, there was never a issue of anyone of the opposite sex being harassed by them. In fact the issues have always been the opposite where individuals have harassed them or they have experienced homophobic harassment for using the toilet that fits with their gender identity rather then biological sex.

@LittleDragonGirl what if girls just don't want to change in close proximity to males? What if they are just not comfortable with it? Why should how girls and women are 'allowed' to feel about changing with a male, be directly dictated by how that male feels 'on the inside'? Males have always dictated to females what they are allowed to do, how they are allowed to feel, why is this different?

Psychological theory argues that by approx 8 years old children will have decided on their gender identity male/female and once puberty hits that gender identity is unlikely to change.

Could you post a link to this theory please?

@PityParty4one Were talking about a school environment not the general public. A school will know if a child is in the process of transitioning and will be in a position to make a informed decision. If a child has solely identified as the opposite sex for a prolonged period of time they are very unlikely to be "faking" to gain access to females or vice versa, because NO ONE would chose to experience the bullying and torment they often face daily from adults and peers. I am not saying that if between the time a trip is announced and the actual trip itself a high school age child suddenly declares a change in gender then they should without a doubt be put in a room with the opposite sex.. that would be suspicious timing. But also when dealing with primary age children, they are VERY UNlikely to be sexually motivated, and almost would not see the act of identifying as male/female as one of sexual aggression.

Little just because YOU have no issue does that mean nobody else can?

There are many reported incidents of males assaulting females while presenting as women.

Sex segregated should remain sex segregated as it is basic safe guarding. It's not about feels.
More females than males are sexually assaulted by males so given that doesn't it make common sense to protect the vulnerable majority?

Or is it ok to you that say 20 women are sexually assaulted to save the hurt feelings of 5 trans women?

Realistically working from statistics children are MUCH more likely to be abused by a family member or family acquaintance then a stranger much less so then by a stranger is a public toilets where apart from sharing the same space the stranger isnt going to be privy to seeing anyone else in a state of undress

So just because someone is more likely to be abused by someone they know than a stranger, we should throw all safeguarding for public spaces out the window and make them all mixed sex?

Even though data suggests that unisex spaces are less safe for females?
www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

Yay!

I bet you call yourself a feminist as well don't you?

LittleDragonGirl I’m not sure if you’re disingenuous, naive or just gullible. They don5 have to do any of those things now. Males can simply say they are a girl and within a very short time, be permitted to join the females in the female only space. As for their genitalia, what happens if they identify as a lesbian? Are you happy to let a male bodied 14yr old who identifies as a lesbian, to sleep in the same female only spaces with your 14yr old daughter? If the answer is yes, then are you happy to let any 14yr old boy to sleep in the female space with your daughter, even though male patterned crimes are committed at the same level amongst all makes, whether they identify as trans or not. Are you willing to risk your daughter’s right to safety, dignity and privacy in order for a young male to feel affirmed by sharing with your daughter?

@CallofDoodee you dont seem to mention the reverse situation? Female to male transition exists also, but then I guess your not concerned about how males may feel being exposed to a female in their personal space? Which may be worse for them as uranials are usually open to the public whereas females toilets are all cubicles. I will post relevant research soon as I sit at my computer give me amount 10 minutes!

Were talking about a school environment not the general public.

And once it is the norm in schools to remove safeguards how long do you think before thos safeguards are removed everywhere?
Is it ok to remove safe boundaries from children?
You do realise that that's a key point in grooming dont you?
Removing children's boundaries and the safeguards in place.

You are naive if you think teaching children that their boundaries dont matter will not have a very negative impact in later life.

Female to male transition exists also, but then I guess your not concerned about how males may feel being exposed to a female in their personal space?

No, I'm not as concerned. Because men are less likely to feel uncomfortable around women, given that 98% of sexual crimes are carried out by men, and women (of any sexual orientation before people start comparing lesbians to men) generally are not a risk to men.

But anyway, a transman would be welcome in the ladies anyway because... They are female.

Female to male transition exists also, but then I guess your not concerned about how males may feel being exposed to a female in their personal space

I would be if it were males that were losing out on jobs, sports, academic places, spaces and were at risk of being raped by the FTM. However that's not the reality us it?

Its females that are losing out. Its females who are to to make room budge up and shut up.

I am not saying that if between the time a trip is announced and the actual trip itself a high school age child suddenly declares a change in gender then they should without a doubt be put in a room with the opposite sex..

But LittleDragonGirl that is exactly how these policies work. From personal experience, from the afternoon my DD announced to her YH that she was now a boy, the policy was fully implemented across the school to treat her as such. If she’d had a school trip the next week, she absolutely would have been put in the boys accommodation and we would have had no say as parents .

That’s part of the reason this challenge to the Oxfordshire policy is so important. It doesn’t matter what boundaries individual parents might find acceptable, they get no say.

LittleDragonGirl

Is there any part of you, any part at all, that has given even the most minuscule headroom to what women and girls might want?

Do you think that women and girls should have any rights at all, ever, to exclude males?

You keep talking about children who identify as trans being bullied, yet all the evidence shows that schools and other organisations that should be protecting ALL children are centring those children that identify as trans. They are completely ignoring the girl’s that feel unhappy sharing with males because of their religious beliefs, history of being sexually assaulted/abused, discomfort at make bodied people seeing their bodies, etc. In fact the literature that is being used in al, those organisations insist that the young trans identifying person should be centred and any females that object should be ‘educated’ or made to leave that space. That doesn’t struck me as the young person who identifies as being trans as the one who is being bullied, on the contrary.

Female to male transition exists also, but then I guess your not concerned about how males may feel being exposed to a female in their personal space?

Oh, ok got it.

Men, of course, have the exact same entitlement to sex segregation in situations where they are vulnerable.

The massive, pivotal difference is that women are not a threat to men, statistically.

Exactly T0rally!!!

Girls are bullied if they say no.
They will be called bigots and removed from the space/event while the male continues without question.

I for one will never tell my DDs that their boundaries and needs come second to that of a males wants and desire for validation.

A school will know if a child is in the process of transitioning and will be in a position to make a informed decision.

You keep talking about the process of transitioning, yet you haven’t explained what that ‘process’ consists of, but I suspect that’s because you don’t actually know. You aren’t actually aware that the ‘process’ starts as soon as the child utters the magic words “I am trans” and those that work in the woke organisations are not permitted to question that, otherwise they’re labelled a bigot and may have their job put at risk.