To think teachers are quite well paid?

[Newyearnewnameforme]

Not intended goadily but my salary is more than most of my graduate friends.

Obviously, it isn’t Rockefeller standards but AIBU to think it’s actually OK?

And then the NQT find themselves with a pay cut until 3 years after qualification.

It's not a policy which is thought through. It's all sticking plasters which aren't addressing the workload issues which means 45% of new teachers leave within 5 years of qualifying. That's a crazy turnover rate and any business with similar would unsurprisingly struggle. Experienced teachers are absolutely vital to help new ones thrive and for the kids too as it's now shown that teachers of 10+ years get the best value added out of their classes: the benefit of experience and wisdom. All of us, whether parents or teacher need school staff to stay.

Whenever I’ve tried to look up teacher retention stats I’ve never been able to find the number who get their PGCE and never start their NQT year.

I think that should be included. People who go to all that effort to train (it’s an awful year) then decide it’s not worth it. Especially given the size of the bursary they may have pocketed.

pay maths and science teachers £10,000 pa more

Oh Clav all is forgiven....

I would imagine that some of the teachers leaving Within 5 years are because they are not very good at teaching. It’s not until you get into a job do you really understand what it is like.

Oh Clav all is forgiven....

The majority of those returning after a break will be those who came back after maternity leave.

Not many who leave the profession in the first 5 years return and 40 percent of new teachers do this.

I'm an A Level teacher, I have two degrees and I'm on 27k with 3 years teaching experience. Unless I leave my current workplace (no chance of promotion) I will never get above 30/32k?

Sounds fine but if you work out the hours I put in outside of work it's insane. Lesson planning, marking essays and mocks for over 100 students as a sole teacher of my subject. All the extra evenings and weekends (student interviews, open days, taster days for school leavers in the holidays..).

My husband left school with only his GCSEs, went no further with his education and earns 25k base pay. Works out to be about £100 less a month from my pay. Doesn't pay student loans, has the option of paid overtime and doesn't take his work home. It all feels very unfair sometimes that all I have worked for doesn't materialise in my work life balance and take home pay.

My husband left school with only his GCSEs, went no further with his education and earns 25k base pay.

I suppose the question is - would you swap jobs with your husband? Particularly if you have children?

For all your teacher recruitment and retention data needs:

researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7222

Re the pension and maternity leave.... I continued to pay in throughout maternity leave. Most people I know did too.

I can well believe the 45% leaving in the first 5 years. A bit of anecdata, my PGCE cohort trained 10 years ago. Out of 70, there are 10 still teaching. 60 people have left. From memory about 7 people never started their NQT year. They took the bursary, trained and ran!

In my current school most teach first trainees have left after their initial 2 years and gone into local government or civil service roles. This is another huge waste of training time and money.

And there are roughly 350,000 trained teachers who are not currently teaching-retention is a definite problem!

Thanks jellyfrizz. Nice to see it in black and white!

A bit of anecdata, my PGCE cohort trained 10 years ago. Out of 70, there are 10 still teaching. 60 people have left.

60 on mine from 1997 and there are 2 still classroom teaching, one of them being part time.

Of mine half never even started due to being older and unable to move for jobs due to family commitments.

This also needs to be looked at. Its all very well recruiting teachers for training but if they are from areas where they are unable to move where the demand is there is little point.

Whenever I’ve tried to look up teacher retention stats I’ve never been able to find the number who get their PGCE and never start their NQT year.

I’d be very interested in this.

Right - all of us who are actually really teachers need to turn this thread off, turn Netflix on, grab a drink and RELAX. We have only a few days people! Today I marked nigh on 120 assessments, entered data , emailed SLT as to my proposed boosters and staffing suggestions ( much good it will do me) and took a breath.

Let's all of us who avtually teach stop feeding this monster thread and watch tv and walk the dog instead. Personally, me and dd are aiming for a massive Anne with an E and last bits of cheese fest tomorrow.

I salute you all - head back to the classroom next week re-energised. Lord alone knows we need to be - this is the term of data and doom. But we shall not be daunted! We can ALL be on 47k!

As I say to my learners, whenever you hear a politician, or anyone else who is trying to persuade you to their point of view, use the word average, your first thought should be “which average” and your second thought should be “why are they using it”.
The thirty something thousand is the mean average, skewed by relatively few very high earners. Last time I looked, the median average pay for teachers wasn’t much different from the general working population median. I suspect that’s still the case.

Wise words phlebas

Thing is, phlebas, my idea of a good time on a Friday night is trawling through the teacher recruitment and retention data posted by jellyfrizz (I’m so cool) so I hope I’m allowed this post. The report linked led to another report that had these juicy stats.

It seems that the DfE can expect about 10% of qualified teachers to drop out of teaching before they’ve even started their first teaching job. Their retention stats normally only include teachers who start teaching as an NQT so things are worse than they appear.
(PGCE drop out rate seemed to be about 10% which seems quite low compared to anecdata). I wonder if this will increase as the admission requirements are weakened.

What I found quite horrifying was that the PGCE students least likely to attain QTS were Physics, Computing and Chemistry - so they are woefully failing to meet their trainee targets and the ones they do get are more likely not to gain QTS.

Finally - pay was not cited as a major factor in teachers quitting (rendering this thread entirely pointless except as some sort of brag), although teachers did say pay didn’t reflect the role.

noblegiraffe - meaning teachers think the pay is reasonable for what they believe the job should be, rather than what it actually is?

I think it means if teachers were the type of people to be driven by pay levels (teacher tapp data showed more teachers were interested in making a difference than making money), then teaching would have an even bigger recruitment and retention crisis.

Which of course means, noble, that if you make UK teaching hideously unpleasant & stressful, you ain't going to fix that by offering golden hellos & inflated NQT salaries.

Because if you attract young graduates who wouldn't otherwise have considered teaching, don't really fancy it much as a job, but haven't any other pressing better ideas, they sure as shit aren't going to hang around once they've figured out their exit strategy 2-3 years in...

More data!

Subjects most likely to go onto NQT year having gained QTS (who qualify for a bursary so not PE) are English, Primary and Drama.

Subjects least likely to go onto NQT year having gained QTS after getting a bursary are
CLASSICS
Business
Physics

So Physics is one of the worst recruitment rates, PGCE pass rates and then continuation to NQT rates. Blimey.

But longtime teacher posters will know why I highlighted Classics. FFS. 36%.

you ain't going to fix that by offering golden hellos & inflated NQT salaries.

Exactly, Purple, we need to fix the job, not the pay (although obviously I wouldn’t turn down a pay rise...). Or they need to make the pay amazing however long you’re in the job.

I didn't even know a PGCE in Classics was possible!