To think teachers are quite well paid?

[Newyearnewnameforme]

Not intended goadily but my salary is more than most of my graduate friends.

Obviously, it isn’t Rockefeller standards but AIBU to think it’s actually OK?

Clav I’ll never forget what your DH does because it led to you giving me my favourite insult I’ve ever received on MN.

Don’t pretend you’re above a bit of banter...

Lola, you are the goady one.

Goading is when you keep posting in the hope of an argument. Disagreeing with someone doesn’t fall into the category of goading.

noblegiraffe
Don’t pretend you’re above a bit of banter...

Agreed - I enjoy sparring with you.
My only 'goady' comment was in reply to your post - and I did add a smiley face.

Goading is when you keep posting in the hope of an argument. Disagreeing with someone doesn’t fall into the category of goading.
Pointing out the inaccuracies in claims isn't goading.

I'm not hoping for an argument. Like many posters, I'm interested in making it clear that most classroom teachers don't earn £40,000+ and challenging claims that were 'proven' by copying and pasting job adverts and being misleading (eg picking a science post when STEM posts are notoriously difficult to recruit for and arguing this is proof that church schools can pay more / finding an agency post talking about lead practitioners and suggesting it's a normal classroom teacher post / suggesting that when an advert quotes M1-UPS3 that's proof that the higher salary is the norm).
Like other posters I challenge those claiming that it's the norm for people to be on top £30s/40s after a couple of years in teaching, people using inner London weightings or advertised independent school salaries to deliberately misrepresent what the pay scales are in most of the country and so on.

As I said earlier, you are happy with your role and salary and that is good. I am also happy with my salary for my role and that is also good. Neither of those things translate to sweeping generalisations and some of the misrepresentations on this thread.

If you don’t want an argument, please stop accusing me of goading. I am a genuine poster.

Obviously after a couple of years in teaching, you won’t be on 40k. However, that’s much the same for most jobs (bar really well paid ones) - you wouldn’t expect to be earning 30-40kwithin the first year.

What I have noticed is an interesting paradox - there is a teacher shortage and teachers are leaving in droves, but a lot of teachers here have stated they won’t earn more than the amount they are currently earning because there are not any suitable jobs.

Haven't you got anything else to do with your day/life OP? Like post some #blessed stuff on Facebook perhaps?

And not one single one of those insults to clav came from, me despite me being continuously identified as difficult or hostile. smug irony

Newyearnewnameforme - you still haven’t said which part of the country you are living in, which I still think is relevant when talking about teacher pay, given that the same salary can go a lot further in some parts of the country than others. Also, you haven’t discussed the historic discrepancies in school funding in different areas of the country, and the huge demographic differences between different areas, all of which affect opportunities for pay progression and working conditions (and thus the perceived adequacy of the pay received and recognition for extra duties taken on). In all honesty, I don’t see how you can fairly make blanket statements about teacher pay and working conditions when the situation of schools and teachers in different parts of the country can be so completely different. Yay for you that you are happy with your pay. It is very good for your mental health to be happy with your situation. You haven’t really explained why you think you should be happy for everyone else’s pay too, though.

Being happy with pay (as also has been sensibly discussed earlier in the thread) for some is not enough. Job satisfaction is not always about pay.

I think non teachers discussing teachers' pay is not helpful, which is why I advocated for this thread being in staffroom (I had at that point assumed OP wasn't aware perhaps of staffroom). I would never presume to discuss lawyers', nurses', doctors' or police pay, for example, because I know it is complex, has jargon attached and I couldn't begin to understand it. Civil service and HE I might engage in from experiences within the family but that's it.

I did yesterday rain and got people complaining then.

walk I have said where I don’t live - not London or the SE. I don’t think anyone needs to know any more than that because my post isn’t about the high living costs in some areas. 47,000 is a good salary no matter where you live. It won’t go far in London but that’s because London is expensive, not because 47,000 is a poor salary.

To answer your second point, I think there is a disparity here. Either teachers are leaving in droves and schools can’t recruit, in which case it is a buyers market for teachers - or teachers are stuck in unsatisfactory jobs and unable to move on because there aren’t any suitable roles.

Now I realise that to a point both those statements are true, but I do think there’s a misconception amongst teachers that if they weren’t teaching, they’d be earning megabucks elsewhere, which isn’t the case as a rule. I certainly don’t know what else I’d do where I could earn this amount.

What I have noticed is an interesting paradox - there is a teacher shortage and teachers are leaving in droves, but a lot of teachers here have stated they won’t earn more than the amount they are currently earning because there are not any suitable jobs.
It's not a paradox.
In fact it's surely obvious to anyone in teaching that many schools are toxic places to work. There are schools I know with high salaries, lots of inflated wider SLT type titles, heads of department in 2nd year, but they aren't places many people wish to work. People would probably say they're unsuitable.

I could be paid more in other schools in my area, but the increase in pay wouldn't make me trade my current school who value staff.

I know of people who work in nice schools have to accept not getting to UPS where it's an open secret there isn't the money and there have been redundancies. They accept staying on M6 because the alternative is working in a horrible school with poor leadership, and have their health ruined.

It's why some private schools don't offer really high salaries. They know people will work for a good salary, but not top of what they could get, in order to work in a nice school and be able to actually spend time teaching

The major problem is that whilst in the private sector people discuss skill shortages as being a reason for high pay and logically that works out, the public sector doesn't respond in the same way to shortages, and as shown on here the general public would frot its self into a boiling rage if it did.

There are several factors determining this but the monopsony nature of education in this country is one of them.

Newyearnewnameforme an opening post can be goady when it's deliberately framed to provoke a bunfight.

The teacher pay scales, like those for nurses, are easily googled so the posters who prefer anecdata to just checking the facts clearly have an agenda. A more balanced opening post might have linked to the published pay scales.

www.tes.com/jobs/careers-advice/pay-and-conditions/pay-scale-calculator-2019-20

Secondary school teachers tend to be slightly better paid than primary but are nevertheless more likely to leave teaching within the first 5 years.

33% of teachers leave teaching within 5 years of qualifying.

www.nfer.ac.uk/news-events/nfer-blogs/latest-teacher-retention-statistics-paint-a-bleak-picture-for-teacher-supply-in-england/

It's working conditions including the general lack of management and people skills displayed by school leadership which lead to the teacher retention crisis; it's just an extra kick in the teeth to be both treated like shit and paid fairly modestly in a graduate career - usually graduate jobs are either better paid in return for poor conditions such as long hours and barely reasonable demands, or less well paid with positive conditions, not both...

My own piece of anecdata is that as a career changer to teaching I had business experience to compare to teaching and this allowed me a clear eyed view of just how terrible the management by people who'd essentially never left school, and had no understanding at all of how to manage and motivate adult colleagues, was. I took a massive pay cut to career change and went into that part clear eyed, but did not realise that I was also about to be treated like a prefect when being "good" and not allowed to question or point out internal contradictions in initiatives that I was asked to spend extra time implementing. Senior management set up so many self contradictory busy work initiatives doomed to produce mediocre results if not quietly dropped, on top of the normal work load and expect every new transparently flawed idea with its attendant extra work load implications to be met with enthusiasm and energy... Teachers are only criticised and told to do better, because of a fear formal praise will support applications to jump up the pay scale...

The contrast with management skills in other organisations is unfavorable, coming from outside teaching.

I work in another field again now, and although the hours can be unsocial there is no work to take home and we're paid for every hour we work, meaning the hourly rate is better than a main scale teacher. Aside from student jobs teaching in the first few years is the worst paid job I've ever done, but that's not why I left. Neither is student behaviour, which wasn't a surprise. The management culture and workload were the reason I left.

There are lots of entry level jobs available which are not open to people further up the scale. You surely know this? AHT roles and so on are much harder to come by. Many schools only internally advertise promoted posts to save money and 'grow talent.'

Do you not believe that teachers are leaving 'in droves '? A few times you have expressed that as if you are sceptical.

I very clearly said many who leave teaching unless only a few years in will not find better paid jobs elsewhere, largely to do with local economies (not all people live near urban centres) and even lower pay in other education sectors. So, yes, many teachers - especially those with families to support- feel trapped.

LOTS of people on here have said pay is not the number one problem.

But. Mine. Wasn’t. MrsMiller

lola absolutely, and some choices people make are the right ones. But they are still choices.

Of course I believe it piggy - it’s not really about whether I believe it or not. I’ve got to go out in a bit, I take it that’s OK?

Of course job satisfaction is not always about pay. It hasn't stopped the government promising to raise teachers’ pay, though, which will eat up the lion’s share of any increase in school budgets. Is this satisfaction with pay before or after the pay rises?

Sarcasm really isn't becoming. If you check back the person I referred to was the one with the DP on 50k.

Knock yourself out.

Yesterday, 19:14 Piggy

You said ‘the OP’ so don’t lie

Ah yes, so I did. Well you wandered back, happily.

I wasn't lying . As you no doubt know, I assumed you were referring to my more recent post pointing out that the 50k earner had not returned.

I really do hope you do not speak to people like this IRL.

Thread'll be full by the time you are back , no doubt. Have a nice day.

But. Mine. Wasn’t. MrsMiller

Did you read MrsMiller's post in full, or just the first sentence?

It was a well written post from someone who has experience outside of the profession, and raises interesting and well thought out points. To dismiss it with a quick reply that ignores the majority of what has been said, is very disappointing.

Newyearnewnameforme you say that so we have to believe that your intent wasn't goady, and apparently MNHQ believe that your intent wasn't goady. However in that case you formed your OP poorly, making it very likely that people would infer it was goady and respond as though that was the case. It really does have, accidentally of course, many of the hallmarks - especially the dangling bait of alluding non-specifically to a comfortable salary and very clear invitation to ask what you earn, the false premis that your salary is an average teacher salary when it is anything but, and the lack of any reference to the published pay scales.

Providing your salary in your next post, again without reference to the much lower average salary, is also dishonest in the context of your chosen thread title.

Yes but you don’t get anywhere with facts because Clavinova can do an internet search!
Oops Clav runs away again when her stats are pulled apart.

Not sure what 'facts' you were referring to.

I'm not wild about the accuracy of your facts either:

Average teacher salary is £37 I think?
And obviously that's skewed by the MAT heads who are still included on their £150k salaries.

"2018 figures - Average salaries for classroom and leadership teachers are higher on average in LA maintained schools.The average salary for a classroom teacher in a LA maintained secondary school is £38,800 compared to £37,400 in secondary academies.The average salary for headteachers is however, higher in academies than in LA maintained schools."

over 45% of newly qualified teachers quit before 5 years are up

Parliamentary briefing Dec 2019:
"22.5% of newly qualified entrants to the sector in 2016 were not recorded as working in the state sector two years later.The five year out-of-service-rate for 2013 entrants was 32.3%, the highest on the current series, which dates back to 1997.The rate has been between 25.4% and 32.3% in each year over this period. The ten year out-of-service rate for 2009 entrants was 38%. It has been between 40.3% and 34.4% in each year since 1997."

Clearly 32% is not the same as 45%.
Not great either way, but the figures don't take account of those teachers who have transferred to the independent sector, are supply teachers (I had forgotten about that group), on maternity leave/career break etc...

"In May 2019, the MAC (Migration Advisory Committee) recommended against expanding the list of subjects on the shortage occupation list and stated that the profession’s vacancy rate was “around average.” It recommended that secondary maths, physics, general science, computer science and Mandarin teachers should remain on the list."

"Workload was the most important factor influencing teachers’ decisions to leave the profession and most suggested solutions to addressing retention were linked to workload in some way."

"pay was not a driver for most [leaving the profession] but it was stated that pay levels were not reflective of the role, professional recognition and greater autonomy."

From a (small) survey in the briefing:

"Not working: over one-quarter were not working at the time of the interview.Some had returned to study, some had taken early retirement and others were taking time out of work and considering their options."

"Most said that they had taken a reduction in salary in their new roles and in some cases teachers had left teaching with no new job to move onto. However, all agreed they felt ‘less stressed’ and as a result of working fewer hours they had time to spend with their families, or doing other things."

It's not a paradox that teachers are leaving in droves and schools can't recruit, whilst at the same time people say they can't earn more elsewhere.

You are right that teachers are leaving and there is a recruitment crisis - it is mostly due to the workload and stress (people leaving) but also made worse by the fact that many teachers who had been in the profession for a while did not get any play rises in real terms for 10 years and due to school funding cuts found it harder and harder to move up the pay scale. Many leave to go to other jobs which might not be better paid, because they simply want to be out of a toxic environment - it's absolutley not all about the money. Some stay unhappily because they know they will earn less in another job (this doesn't mean teaching is well paid ) and their family situation means they can't afford it. The are lots leaving and lots more who would like to leave - money doesn't help but isn't the only cause of the problem.

Some teachers earn £45k+ - whether that is we'll-paid depends on what you compare it to and where you live. Op is clearly satisfied with it, which is great. She sounds like she enjoys her job too - great.

The majority of teachers though don't earn that and the fact that some do doesn't mean most ever will or most ever can - pretty simple to understand. Not all staff can hold promoted positions and lots of teachers are too inexperienced to be far up the pay scales. Many will never earn lots more in teaching because many will leave to be replaced by new cheaper staff, some will become part time and lots will reach a max pay below this as it is harder to move up the UPS or to get promotions with significant extra salary.

Some Heads get paid a vast sum for running huge schools or trusts. That is true, but to say that because a few do, this is available to all teachers is just daft. Thousands and thousands work in teaching and knowing what most earn in the different phases of education and different types of school will show that there is variation and also that most don't earn above £40k. Yes, teachers salaries are generally higher than the national average - perhaps knowing that satisfies Op and perhaps she is comparing her income to that of minimum wage employees. Or those on zero hours contracts - all teachers are doing well compared to those (although many won't be earning much more if an hourly rate is worked out), and perhaps similarly to some other public sector jobs but less well compared to lots of comparable degree level private sector jobs.

Perhaps Op could take a broader assessment of teaching as a career and look at the range of pay earned, the positives and negatives of the job and look at how many are wanting to enter and leave the role and compare those to other careers and also over time. Recognising that ones own experience isn't necessarily reflective of that of all or even most seem pretty basic.

The original post was AIBU to think teachers are quite well paid.

SOME teachers are quite well paid, SOME teachers are very well paid(but they probably don’t do any actual teaching), SOME teachers are relatively poorly paid. Particularly if you stay as a classroom teacher, which is presumably why people go into the profession in the first place.

There used to be remuneration for being an excellent practitioner and sharing your expertise, mentoring others. Yes teachers are leaving the profession, recruitment is not meeting targets and yes, people are saying that they can’t get jobs. The reasons are that, being in post and moving to another classroom teacher post, generally means taking a drop in salary, because schools can’t afford generally, to pay higher salaries, so the way to increase salary is to increase responsibility and go for promotion. Not everyone wishes to move away from what they trained to do.

Recruitment and retention won’t improve whilst the workload and unrealistic expectation remains as it is. Most people have been to school, therefore most people think they know what teaching is like. Looking at statistics can make them mean whatever you want them to.

For some teachers, dealing with the daily unrealistic workload, the bullying culture, poor student behaviour and the unremitting stress, drives them to leave, to try part time, or to simply give up. For others, they will put up with the negatives to do the job.

I think that £47,000 is a good salary. It is to me anyway. I also think that there aren’t that many classroom teachers without additional responsibility who are paid that sum. Teachers shouldn’t be castigated for not looking for promotion and there are many reasons why teachers wish to stay as teachers.

So ultimately, I don’t think teachers are particularly well paid. But I don’t think that’s the main reason why so many leave.

Many teachers don't want promotions because they enjoy the actual teaching the most (me included). Data analysis and meetings are just boring.