To not give our 10 year old his Christmas presents?

[stardust22]

Our 10 year old is threatening to tell his 6 year old Sister that Father Christmas isn't real.

He is trying to use this information to black mail us. When he is given consequences he will say either cancel my consequences or I'll tell her the truth about Christmas.

We have said we won't put up with his behaviour & if he did tell her he would not receive any Christmas presents.

He is & always has been rude & aggressive. I don't know how much information to give as this has been on going since he was 4 years old.

My husband & I have discussed not giving Christmas presents to him previously but I have always said no way.

This year I am unsure..... I know it would cause massive upset & ruin our Christmas but he acts so entitled & really only cares about himself.
I don't think it will change his behaviour as nothing we have ever done has, we are just at a loss.

My youngest son was just like this and we got all the way to the head of paediatrics at a very large hospital. The only thing he could suggest was drugs. My child was 3.5 and there was no way I was putting him on mood regulating drugs. If I didn't want drugs, all they could offer was a management class.
By this time he was plotting my death and setting traps to make me fall and trip me. He would throw furniture at his older brother and whisper how he was going to cut my head open and take my brains out with a spoon. It was scary.

I started researching and started looking at artificial colours and additives.
By trial and error I worked out that artificial colours, and sodium benzoate (a preservative used mostly in drinks) were the culprits. One small packet of haribo sweets would have him oppositional and nasty for around 36 hours.
It took a few months to work out what it was because it took so long to come down from a single episode, but once we had it cracked it was a miracle.
I spent hours in supermarkets reading labels, and once I knew what the "good" version of pretty much everything was it was pretty easy. I swapped party bag sweets for chocolate (which he willingly handed over) and brought our own piece of cake to replace the party child colourful cake.
By the time he was in reception he was a different child.

He is now post university and completely charming.

Was there a point in his childhood when he wasn't like this? Can you pinpoint a time when it started?
The clue for me was that he was fine until he was about 18 months and I started letting him have squash to drink.

Best of luck OP. I remember how hopeless and helpless I felt..

Agree with ThisMama1 - as I said above it may not be PDA but def worth reading up about it. Consultant says said my son doesn't have it but he def shows traits and at school and home we've implemented strategies assuming PDA. It has improved.

www.amazon.co.uk/Understanding-Pathological-Avoidance-Syndrome-Children/dp/1849050740/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=pathological+demand+avoidance&sprefix=Patho&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1577129031&sr=8-1

A short basic read but nevertheless helpful -the strategies could still be implemented and may be helpful. One thing to bear in mind about this Christmas/Santa stand off, according to the book, you just may have to let this one go: no threats, no you do this you do that, let is take its course and support your daughter if shes upset (extra présent to smooth over fall out?) - you have to pick battles and this actually isn't one. I know it's hard. I've had to just spend my day protecting one kid from another another who is thrown off his routine due to holidays and all other different demands. It's shit. It utterly sucks to be dealt this card but above all it is heart breaking to know my son is so anxious that he lashes out the way he does.

Push more with school /GP

Keep Following through on consequences.

He knows the consequences for telling your sister, if he doesn’t, follow through. The amount of people telling you to give into him is shocking to me, similar to the amount of people telling you that setting a consequence is threatening him. Either way, it sounds like he’s going to find a way to ruin Christmas.

I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this

Have you asked him how he felt when he discovered Father Christmas wasn’t real? I absolutely feel for you but hope you have a great Christmas

I’ve not read all the thread but 100%agree with millimollimandi!

Make a threat that if something is done then this is the consequence. Follow it through!

I was going to mention PDA too. We have several children in our wider family with it and ‘normal’ parenting doesn’t work in situations like this.

You need support. See another gp, keep seeing them, or can you afford to go private? Support for both you and your son. I hope things improve

You sound like a toxic parent. Research that and change the way you speak about and treat your poor son. He is a child and you are an adult. Children are not bad or rude or aggressive they behave in particular ways if they do not feel unconditional love from their parents. Your treatment of him and attitude towards him has made him act in these ways so you need to change yourself. It sounds as though your son does not feel accepted and included in your family and that you see your daughter as a golden child and he is the scapegoat. How on earth you could think of doing something so cruel as to take away a child’s Christmas presents is beyond me. Poor child.

I’ve not read the whole threat, but I have a similar personality in my dd and this is the sort of thing she would do. I’ve learnt that consequences, if mentioned, HAVE to be followed through. However my dd lives in the moment so consequences often don’t have any affect and only succeed in ruining everyone’s day.

Simply say you won’t be bribed, if he wants to tell his sister then that’s up to him. However it’s a really horrid thing to do. If he does tell her, sit her down and say he’s just being mean.

I wouldn’t bother with the ‘no presents’ on Christmas Day as all that will do is ruin the day for everyone as he’ll likely have a meltdown and make the day all about him. When my 8yr old has a melt down, everyone suffers, it’s horrendous.

By the way, my dd has just been diagnosed with adhd so it might be worth speaking to school about his behaviour and your gp.

I think you’ll find some are @SillyShakeys

There needs to be a middle ground.
OP, you’re not a toxic parent. You’re human, and when people aren’t being nice (intentional or not) it is hard to want to treat them, because that is what Christmas is. A treat.
It’s not cruel to take presents away. It’s commercialised and children have always been told that they’ll get coal if they’re naughty.

You can’t go on in life with a child who will constantly expect others to change to suit themselves- it honestly mirrors abusive relationships to me (in adults). We have to learn that we need to be able to talk and not start being manipulative/ how your son is behaving.

Hi, your school SENCO should have completed an EHA (Early help assessment) with a ‘Team around the Family’, this may include the school nurse or health teams if they are involved. Together they put a plan in place and signpost you to relevant support-whether that is recognising PDA tendencies or assessment for attachment disorders or even ASD. REGARDLESS of this behaviour not being present in school-you are asking for help because as a parent you are concerned for the well-being if your child. Lay on mental health as these are buzz words in education at the moment. Good luck.

Your son is hurting.... badly and fighting fire with fire will only make the situation worse. He needs help and support and lots & lots of love. Why don’t you see your GP or go for a direct referral to CAHMS if school won’t support you.

I’ve been where you are, although we didn’t have violence but lots of antagonistic behaviours, were slowly resolving this by lots of positive reinforcement- it’s really hard when they’re being little shits but it works. Try & find out what his ‘love language’ (use google) is & work from there.
You’re behaviour isn’t just as antagonistic as his & you need to change the way you react.
Good luck xx

He is 10- the age of criminal responsibility. Old enough to understand right and wrong.

www.5lovelanguages.com/quizzes/

What about when your child becomes an adult @ justlliloleme? And they have a fall out with their partner?

Do you think they’ll just be nasty to them until they receive love back?

What happened to having consequences for your actions in life?
Instead of prison should we be sending criminals to a spa?

Another one here thinking maybe he's undiagnosed ASD with PDA. Please look into them. My son masks at school but can be a nightmare at home. You could ask your dr to refer to paediatrician? If you haven't already? Or self refer to Camhs, but they're utter shite. Good luck OP. There's clearly something much deeper going on here

Even if he doesn't say anything, I'd be so tempted to not give him anything due to his attempted blackmail.

Harsh punishments do not a strong parent make... Teaching boundaries is showing you care. Time to get curious, not furious.
Hey there OP, breath. I'm a parent group leader and I run parent groups. Parents who are struggling to manage behaviour attend my groups. I pass on tools that they report back do help alleviate home-life.
I will offer a few tips here. I'm no expert, they may or may not work.
Perhaps change Christmas around if you can. Spend time with your son who seemingly doesn't care about consequences and is making threats of his own - he is pushing you to see how far you will go. My advice: don't rise to the challenge.
Get your DH to take your youngest out on Christmas Day if you can, then serenely spend time doing something christmassy. Stay calm, that is key. Your are the parent, your oldest son is not your boss. Christmas presents can wait. If your son doesn't want to spend time with you, fine. Later, you and your DH switch places. If you can, re-order the timetable. Serve Christmas lunch later than usual. If you have family around, delay their giving gifts too. By all means, have them visit you if that's the plan. Talk to them first about your son, reiterate that you want to get to the reasons for his rudeness and aggression, not make it worse. If someone wants to get on board to help you talk to him, let them. Get them to ask your oldest why would he want to hurt his sibling by rubbishing the magic of Christmas. But don't shame or embarass him. Let him know that's pretty hurtful and vindictive, get them to ask is that the kind of person he is inside or wants to be, when he wasn't raised that way.
OP, you are mum. Don't let him bully you. Set boundaries, now is not too late. Not giving him his Christmas gifts is unreasonable and asking for revenge.
If you can't jiggle the Christmas Day timetable by switching childcare shifts with DH, then that's cool. Running Christmas differently would be enough to shake your eldest up, especially if he is one that likes to stampede-unwrap his gifts before breakfast for example. Just do something different, anything. But don't do it in a way that ruins the day.
Ultimately, have The Chat.
Key is, stay patient, don't lose your cool. Tell him that you feel that he is angry and that you want help, but you can't when he is misbehaving (insert what he is doing). Tell him you feel hurt when he is.... (insert misbehaviour), ask him could he help you by telling you how he feels, what does he need (these will be basic needs, safety, security, esteem, independence, self-realisation aims - not material). Think about his answers carefully, can you help him with anything? Support positive action only. Set goals. Meet halfway or compromise on things that you are not ready for - like more pocket money or staying out longer BUT he has to do his chores, use his manners, homework first and make you a cuppa. Be assertive. Outline a plan, set it out like an agreement. Be empathetic and be in charge, but ultimately he has to note your feelings, be responsible for his behaviour as it will do him no favours in the future. If he can't sit down for this chat, try again and again until he does. If he doesn't like the agreement, ask him why. Do not accept typical immature responses. Just adjourn and return to the drawing board another day.
If he has hundreds of gifts this Christmas, drip-feed them. But don't do it as a punsihment, work out a reward system - there are 12 days of Christmas afterall. If he doesn't like it, tough
Remind him you feel hurt when he is (insert misbehaviour here).
May i suggest reading - The Me Me Me Epidemic by Amy McCready, The Parenting Puzzle by Candida Hunt. Faber & Mazlish books are brilliant too, especially Sibling Rivalry.
Bits of.these books have positively helped a dozen parents with 10-year-olds that I have taught. You have to find what works for you.
Getting to the bottom of his aggressiveness will take time. You might want to talk to a teacher, enquire about your eldest's behaviour & performance.

OP, be strong: show assertiveness and teach boundaries - that shows you care ultimately.
I hope you have a nice Christmas anyway x

Haven't read the whole thread.

I can't understand why in all the years this has been ongoing thst you've only taken this whole situation to your GP on two occasions.

Reacting over your DSS behaviour at Christmas when he's been like this the other 364 days of the year is senseless. How do you think it's going to resolve anything?

I don't think grand gestures of punishment work really. And it will only serve to punish you all and you're resentment of him will simply grow. He's not going to have a lightbulb moment out of this.

I get you're at the end of your rope but you need a proper behaviour modification plan. If he tells her he tells her. You can simply tell her he's being mean by trying to upset her and that will be the truth.

You're in an almighty power struggle with this kid. Honestly he's too old to learn you're in charge. He will be bigger than you in a few short years. I know it's not popular but a five year old who kicked my seat repeatedly would have gotten a smacked bottom from me. No way I'd have that kind of dangerous behaviour while driving. But you are where you are now.

Next year maybe try to make him a Santa? That way he feels in on it and part of the team? He somehow needs to feel like he's a team with you. And he needs anger management techniques for what he's going to do when he blows his top.

Of course FC isnt real, he's magical!
I'd bet that your 6 yr old has heard the truth at school already but is ignoring it. At 6, kids are pretty savvy, but still want to believe in fairy tales.
How did your 10yr old find out the truth?

Please don’t use Christmas as a punishment or battleground. Find another consequence if you must. My eldest daughter was told many times by her younger siblings that Santa wasn’t real. She never believed them. I kind of doubt his telling would have such a drastic impact. Maybe family therapy could help?

I would NOT give him any presents and I would feel very content with my decision not to do so. Why on earth should a badly behaved kid be 'treated' at Christmas. Gifts are just that, no one is entitled to one not even your children. If his behaviour has been consistently bad then go with your first feeling which was not to give him presents, if this is just a blip then fair enough. He may think again before he tries to blackmail his parents. That said, if you already have them, there is nothing stopping him fro. 'earning' them in the new year.

I am a firm believer that if you say an action will have a certain consequence then you have to stand by it. However, I also think that if you don't give him any presents for Christmas it could ruin your relationship with him forever. I would say, from what you have said, that threats are not having the desired effect of improving his behaviour overall even if they do manage specific incidents. The only way around this that I can see is to tell your dd yourself about Santa. That takes his power away and means that you can do it gently rather than let him really upset her.

In the longer term, you need to fight and fight and fight for help. It's the only way I'm afraid.

He is being extremely manipulative. Telling his sister would be a calculated action intended to hurt her and ruin Christmas for everyone. Tell him if he does it then he gets no presents and he has to sit and watch his sister opening hers. Be prepared to follow through. He is pushing the boundaries to the absolute limit and you need to hold firm.

You could donate his gifts to children whi deserve them or say he can earn each one back on YOUR terms.