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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not give our 10 year old his Christmas presents?

323 replies

stardust22 · 22/12/2019 14:27

Our 10 year old is threatening to tell his 6 year old Sister that Father Christmas isn't real.

He is trying to use this information to black mail us. When he is given consequences he will say either cancel my consequences or I'll tell her the truth about Christmas.

We have said we won't put up with his behaviour & if he did tell her he would not receive any Christmas presents.

He is & always has been rude & aggressive. I don't know how much information to give as this has been on going since he was 4 years old.

My husband & I have discussed not giving Christmas presents to him previously but I have always said no way.

This year I am unsure..... I know it would cause massive upset & ruin our Christmas but he acts so entitled & really only cares about himself.
I don't think it will change his behaviour as nothing we have ever done has, we are just at a loss.

OP posts:
TheRealCost · 24/12/2019 01:04

I feel for you Stardust22 and my heart aches for you both. It is distressing to feel out of control when parenting a challenging child and it is all too often a very lonely business.

One of my children has presented this kind of challenging behaviour since before he turned one, and more than a decade and a half later he still is challenging to parent.

I was so very desperate by the time he started nursery, I felt I couldn't cope with him anymore. We explored all kinds of possible root causes for his aggression and out of control behaviour, ODD, ADD, ASD, deafness, obscure and common allergies, food sensitivities...

Being told at pre-school and school, that no, he's behaving beautifully for us, I don't recognise this child that you describe and nothing about him suggests he has any of those conditions was upsetting.

At some point I couldn't help but wonder if the problem wasn't him but us. As other pp have pointed out, children tend to

  • model the behaviour of their parents
  • engage in patterns of behaviour that work for them
  • meet their parents' expectations, especially the bad ones

At age three and a half you had a child react to a stressful situation in a not uncommon involuntary compulsion to withhold his stool. This isn't misbehaviour or naughtiness or defiance or anything else that's about your relationship with him, it is a reaction to a situation where he feels out of control. It's not personal. I've encountered quite a number of children who did this, one of my own (a most agreeable child) did too.

It is incredibly hard for the child to stop the behaviour as once it becomes a habit this involves physiological processes they cannot fully control, despite their best efforts, and when they do have to go to the toilet it can be painful and the urge overwhelmingly powerful. It's a vicious cycle to be caught up in for both parents and children.

But what it is not is misbehaviour.

Later you describe a perfectly obedient child, who duly accompanied you to the car after playing in the park. A child who much to his misfortune then gave voice to his entirely age appropriate disappointment that something he enjoyed very much was over and he was very much powerless to avoid that happening.

And so he lost the privilege of after-school park visits permanently. You don't say how many years ago that was, but in any case for an age appropriate misbehaviour he deserved an age appropriate consequence that would help him learn to express his disappointment in an age appropriate manner. What he got was a vengeful punishment that is lasting to this very day. When will the punishment be over? What lesson is he learning now? How can he earn these park visits back?

I'm not simply being mean here, these are questions I had to confront myself. After that last parent-teacher conversation I did not immediately understand just what I was doing that had locked us into a never-ending and forever escalating power struggle with our son. But I did finally have to consider that the problem was us and not him. What's so difficult about that realisation is that we can't easily change someone else, especially not when you're locked into a struggle involved ingrained patterns of behaviour. But we can change how we react to others and then we can start to change these patterns. Which is what we did over a number of years.

Despite what many pp are suggesting in their sympathy for your struggle, there may well be a different reason why no professional has been willing to refer your son to date. Not every bad behaviour is caused by any number of conditions, even though that is always something to take into account.

Sometimes our parenting efforts do fall short. We pick up the wrong advice, we fall into bad habits, we think we follow common sense when sometimes it's neither common nor making sense.

For instance, I don't know who taught you that the most important thing about disciplining your children was to follow through on any threats you make. (That's what I get from your posts - once you make a threat, you have to follow through however inappropriate or ineffective they may be.)

Despite what most people seem to think "disciplining our children" does not actually refer to punishment. It is the long and arduous endeavour to equip our children with the ability to make good choices when we are not there to make these choices for them. When your threats are absent.

That's your longterm goal.

Not to put the fear of you in him, not to teach him a lesson he'll never forget, not to make him see that you will follow through on your threats.

It may involve punishments at times, but mostly it involves setting age appropriate boundaries, presenting clear, age appropriate consequences with an age appropriate duration, opportunities to make amends and most importantly avoiding punishments that are retaliative in nature. And yes, this is bloody hard work. So pick your battles - not every misbehaviour must be punished. And even if you do all that, you'll still make mistakes and have to adjust your system. Try to start every day with a blank slate for you and your son - reset to annoyance level zero and don't carry your anger, frustration and pain over into your parenting. It's really not productive.

I do agree with some posters that your child's behaviour should indeed set alarm bells ringing, but not for the reasons you worry about. He may well need therapy, or better still would be family therapy. His behaviour strongly suggests that he is struggling with feelings of worthlessness, that he is lashing out at a world that is hurting him. He's been branded the black sheep in the family, you prejudice every education professional against him by emphasising his terrible behaviour at home. He knows this. He's probably heard you tell others how bad he is for as long as he can remember. This can become a self-fulfilling prophecy and yet still you continue doing so despite years of teachers telling you he's behaving perfectly.

I suspect that this is because teachers tend to set age appropriate boundaries, clear and consistent rules that are fair for all, coupled with age appropriate consequences and rewards. He seems to thrive in an environment that doesn't treat him with the hostility he experiences at home (however hard you try to hide it, children can tell).

From the sounds of it, you have given vengeful parenting with retaliative punishments a jolly good go, six years worth of it if I'm reading you right. It hasn't helped. And no amount of punishment will help, because that is not what he needs, however logical your consequences may seem at the time. He is clearly understanding them as retaliation and therefore resorting to the exact same tactics you employ.

Why not try another way?

Try building a positive, open relationship with him. Bin the vengeful parenting and the OTT consequences, focus on empathetic listening and making amends. I mean have you asked him why he wants to tell his little sister that there's no such thing as Santa? Have you asked him what he wants to achieve with that? You say you've discussed his bad behaviour a lot, but do you listen without judging him or jumping in with suggestions or do you speak at him and dismiss anything he tries to say as excuses?

If you don't already, you could try holding regular family meetings where everyone gets heard, including his younger siblings. Explain the rights, responsibilities and privileges everyone has and which additional privileges the children can earn for good behaviour. Limit the number of behaviours you wish to tackle - three to five is more than enough. List a number of options for consequences and rewards, then deliver a kind but firm explanation that these specific behaviours are not what you want to see from any member of the family and draw up appropriate rules around them.

No lectures, no shaming, and please don't make it all about him. Then let the kids choose which rewards they will receive for following the rules, which consequences for breaking them and how they may make amends. Next time let the kids tell you what worked and what didn't. Adjust your rules, rewards and consequences if necessary. It isn't too late for any of that.

One last suggestion - you are clearly distressed and full of negative feelings about your son. He can feel that, he knows it, sees it, hears it. It won't motivate him to do better, it will cement his conviction that he is worthless, the black sheep who can do nothing right.

Try to make a list of everything that is good about him, that you love about him, however small these things may be right now. Focus on these things, notice them when they happen, hold onto them to tide you over the next bad situation. It's not easy to do, but it does help in reprogramming yourself.

sallyfox · 24/12/2019 01:36

Get help for your son and your family as soon as possible, from someone who is qualified, sharp, calm, has masses of common sense, lives in the real world, and will do something positive to help your family now.

Catrina1234 · 24/12/2019 01:47

That is a brilliant post THE REAL COST. Haven't readthe whole thread - got frustrated at everyone agreeing present to this child. He needs help =can you afford a child psychologist and PLEASE engage in positive parenting not negative (as in taking his presents away) Sorry but that gives some indication of the way you are parenting. this child, He needs help and so d you as his parents and many people have wondered if he's jealous of littlesister?

Katzia · 24/12/2019 02:23

You've raised a brat. He found out you lied to him and is now playing you. Cancel his Christmas and all our privileges the minute he threatens again. Going forward stop perpetuating myths. Santa doesn't exist, neither does the tooth fairy, Easter bunny etc. Don't lie to your children.

emzey · 24/12/2019 02:48

Katzia, your mum raised a rude, cold hearted person....
Go to bed and see if you can wake up any nicer;)

LaraYates604 · 24/12/2019 04:24

I have 4 kids aged 8-18. They all know that Santa only brings gifts to those that believe. My 2 (well aware) oldest children know they better say they believe or they won’t get any presents from Santa. I follow thru with my threats so they know better than to mess with me.

Your youngest knows what kind of person your son is. I would tell her that Santa is real and her brother is trying to spoil her Christmas day. Give your son no Santa gifts and leave his stocking empty. Let him sulk in his room all day and pay him no mind. Enjoy your day with your daughter and ignore him. Make it extra special and have fun with the child that deserves the magic and joy of Christmas. If you don’t put your foot down now he will only get worse.

Parenting is tough and you need to be strong knowing you are helping him in the long run. It’s only one day and the lesson will last a lifetime. You are doing him a favour in the long run.

Katzia · 24/12/2019 04:41

@emzey My dear departed mother raised a realist. If you lie to your children, you can only expect them to turn around and disrespect you once they realise the truth...that their parents are not to be trusted. Why do you think there are so many disrespecful brats in this world... It's because they were told a bunch of lies by their parents and are totally disillusioned.

Juliette20 · 24/12/2019 04:47

It sounds like he has had a lot of treats withheld from him over the years. It sounds like a cruel and authoritarian type of parenting, that DS is sad, angry and doesn't know whether you love or even like him. To even think of not giving a child his Christmas presents makes me feel heartbroken for him.

You probably feel you are trying your best, but these draconian tactics clearly aren't working.

Start by loving him, telling him you love him regularly. Spend one to one time with him doing things he likes, and make sure his dad does too. Praise loads when he is good particularly when he demonstrates kindness or empathy for others. Ignore minor bad behaviour and tantrums. Talk calmly to him about his behaviour and your expectations when you are both calm. The main thing now is to work on trying to raise his self-esteem and to help him make good choices of behaviour. I'd also recommend going to parenting classes to get some support. Good luck with everything.

Dongdingdong · 24/12/2019 05:14

Your ten year old probably is modelling himself after activists that whistleblow the truth about lying corporations and governments.

Modelling himself after activists and whistleblowers? He’s 10 FGS!

PeriComoToes · 24/12/2019 06:06

Thank you for that thoughtful post TheRealCost. I think all of us can take some advice away from that no matter what our circumstances.

The very best of luck to you OP, you and your family have had some really really tough years and I hope that over time and with patience things improve for you all.

Ignore posters who call you useless and your child a brat, they have their own issues.

Alleycat1 · 24/12/2019 06:54

Millimollimandi gave the best advice at the start of the thread. You said you would take away his presents so should follow through or he will perceive you as weak and play up even more. After Christmas some form of family therapy might help. One of my cousins behaved similarly to your son, OP, nobody ever knew why and it made life so difficult for his siblings and my aunt and uncle. You have my sympathy and best wishes .

WhataMissMap · 24/12/2019 07:30

Some people do have challenging personalities, some people do like their own way. Often very successful people demonstrate these characteristics.

They must have been children once, exhibiting these same characteristics.

Congratulate yourself that you have raised your son to be well behaved at school. He is probably going to grow up to be a very successful alpha Male.

If you don’t change your strategies at home in dealing with him you are going to create more problems for yourself and possibly to damage him.

He is not a boy you are going to be able to coerce into good behaviour. You need to talk to him, don’t hector him, listen to him and think about what he says.

Help him reason his problems out. Try not to tell him what he should think. He sounds like a boy who needs to work things out for himself.

Re. The Father Christmas issue. Explain your reasons why you don’t want him to tell his sister but listen to his reasons for wanting to tell her. If you listen without getting irritated you might be surprised by his reasoning.

I hope it all works out for you.

mumwithatum · 24/12/2019 07:53

When my DS was young a child announced to the class that Santa wasn't real. DS came home and asked us if that was true.
I told him that Santa was real and that he didn't bring presents to naughty children, so perhaps his parents had told him that Santa wasn't real so that he wasn't upset at Christmas. As he was older, I also said that he shouldn't argue or contradict a child who said that as then they might found out that he was real and be upset. I wanted him to be able to keep the magic going without anyone thinking that he was being babyish - (there were a few truely horrible kids in that class).
When he grew older I told him that I believed that Santa was real, that I believed that although Santa did not bring presents, his magic made the day extra special for everyone, but that when it came to presents it was us that arranged for them.
I have done this for 2/3 of my kids. Youngest still believes. This allowed them to believe until they left primary.
Don't take your ds Xmas presents away. That will ruin Xmas for everyone including the dd you are trying to protect. I would tell dd something in preparation so that he can't ruin it for her, and then deal with the underlying/ongoing issues with ds. I hope that you get it sorted. It sounds very stressful for you. X

scubadive · 24/12/2019 08:40

Why on earth have you admitted to a 10 year old, with a 6 year old sister that he isn’t real. You should just say I do t know what you are talking about. Be brazen, your 6 year old won’t believe him, call his bluff.

Just say to her that he’s worried he’s been naughty this year and won’t get many presents. Tell her not to listen and of course he’s real. Play polar express.

Then start parenting him very closely next year. Never let him call the shots, always call his bluff, he is 10 ffs!

Lweji · 24/12/2019 08:43

It's not his fault his parents are hypocrites.
You are maintaining a lie and you expect good behaviour from him
For the love of God, give him his preset and set an example by telling the little girl that Santa is a myth.

Lweji · 24/12/2019 08:45

Why on earth have you admitted to a 10 year old, with a 6 year old sister that he isn’t real.

10 year olds are not stupid.

Iggly · 24/12/2019 08:47

Sometimes our parenting efforts do fall short. We pick up the wrong advice, we fall into bad habits, we think we follow common sense when sometimes it's neither common nor making sense

^This, absolutely this.

This child is 10, still very much a child.

When my dcs are acting up and it’s continuously a battle, then the first place I look is the mirror. Why? Because I’m the adult and I recognise that my children will behave in a certain way in reaction to me.

Iggly · 24/12/2019 08:52

I confirm I have not taken him to the park after school with his friends again. He does after school clubs & he goes to the park on weekends but not after school

Eh? Since he was 3.5? A toddler having a toddler tantrum?

He’s now 10, and if that’s the approach you’ve been taking - long term punishments then no wonder he’s this way.

I think you need to have some parenting help to be honest. He’s 10, so there’s a lot to unpick. While he may well have SEN (although school don’t think so), the behaviour problems seem only to be with his parents? And even if he does have SEN you need parenting help. Better to sort this now before it gets worse.

Iggly · 24/12/2019 08:54

You said you would take away his presents so should follow through or he will perceive you as weak and play up even more

It’s a pretty stupid punishment to issue in the first place to be honest. It sounds like the OP has just escalated her threats and look where it has got her.

It has become a massive power struggle and soon she won’t have any power left when no punishment will work. My ten year old, lost ten year old would be devastated to lose their presents so clearly this kid has little self esteem as he has said he’s not bothered about it.

He’s trying to get some control and has become manipulative because that is the behaviour that has been modelled to him through his life (I.e “if you don’t do this, this will happen”).

StartingAgainID · 24/12/2019 08:56

The rule in our house has always been that if anyone says they don't believe, they don't get the presents. My kids are in their 20s, and obviously know full well what's what...... but we still pretend because I like it. If he blabs, I'd suggest fewer presents for him. Family ones only. And the magic of Christmas Santa ones for the younger siblings.

Jakkipu · 24/12/2019 08:57

I have told my 13 year old daughter that it is in her best interests to keep her brother believing because the moment he stops, Santa no longer visits. (daughter is 13 and still gets visits because I don't want my son to start questioning)

Lweji · 24/12/2019 08:57

I agree, Iggly.

Children do have different personalities, but they very much react to us.
If doing X isn't working, take a long hard look at what is X.

One thing I use with older DS is to ask him if he would like to be treated in that way (how he talked to me), because I don't. I can't say this if I talk aggressively to him, for example.

It's tough to look at ourselves, but so worth it.

Iggly · 24/12/2019 09:06

One thing I use with older DS is to ask him if he would like to be treated in that way (how he talked to me), because I don't. I can't say this if I talk aggressively to him, for example

^absolutely agree Lweji

There are times when I’ve been too harsh on DS or DD and I will actually apologise, explain I misunderstood and apologise for my behaviour (because sometimes I do make mistakes) and reign back on whatever I’ve said. And yes I do take back sanctions if I’ve over reacted.

As the DCs get older, I have found that regularly I have to adjust my approach because they’re not toddlers/pre schoolers/younger dcs anymore. When I start to hit problems I can see it’s because they’ve grown up a bit (to take an extreme example, a sticker chart won’t work with a teenager 😂).

Sillyscrabblegames · 24/12/2019 09:09

I think you should give this boy a bit of credit for his intelligence. He thinks your consequences are ridiculous, and so he is using your lie to his sister about santa to get back some Control.
You can't win this situation as you are all behaving badly.

Lizzie0869 · 24/12/2019 09:27

I agree with other PPs that the problem is that you've allowed this to escalate with threat and counter threat. It's very easy to let that happen. My DDs are adopted and DD1 is the same age as your DS. She also gets very angry and will throw whatever is to hand. She's broken a fan in the past, and broken their iPad by kicking it viciously. She's also been violent towards me and towards DD2 (now 7) in the past. (She once tried to hit me with a rounders bat.)

We've had a lot of training in dealing with this sort of behaviour. My DD1 is very jealous of DD2 (one of the reasons is that she has a lot of friends and gets invited to parties unlike her). There is a lot of anger in her and anxiety. Children get like this when they feel unlovable, and punishing them simply proves to them that they're right.

There's no better way to prove this to your DS than to withhold Christmas presents.

My DD1 is also well behaved at school, so I really do share your pain. What then happens is that at home all her anger tumbled out of her.

You need to break this cycle. Try to deal with issues before it escalates into a full-blown shouting match with threat and counter threat. You should also refrain from issuing a consequence until you've both calmed down. (The consequence we use is deduction of pocket money.)

Regarding this particular argument, I would suggest calling his bluff. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he didn't follow through on his threat because he's clearly doing this to get a rise from you. (Negative attention is better than no attention.)