To not give our 10 year old his Christmas presents?

[stardust22]

Our 10 year old is threatening to tell his 6 year old Sister that Father Christmas isn't real.

He is trying to use this information to black mail us. When he is given consequences he will say either cancel my consequences or I'll tell her the truth about Christmas.

We have said we won't put up with his behaviour & if he did tell her he would not receive any Christmas presents.

He is & always has been rude & aggressive. I don't know how much information to give as this has been on going since he was 4 years old.

My husband & I have discussed not giving Christmas presents to him previously but I have always said no way.

This year I am unsure..... I know it would cause massive upset & ruin our Christmas but he acts so entitled & really only cares about himself.
I don't think it will change his behaviour as nothing we have ever done has, we are just at a loss.

We had to go to CAMHS for my daughter and we worked on the policy - do not threaten something that will ruin it for everyone. Choose a punishment that is meaningful. However, once said, you must follow through. On top of this, we told our children that the moment they say that they do not believe in santa claus, is the year that they don't receive a present from SC. It has worked, because they know we will do it.

You are in a pickle. It must be so stressful, but there are ways out. He will still get presents from others. you could give coal from santa and something very small from you - though that is breaking the punishment. BUT what every you do get some help.
When things are quiet, get to a parenting class. Set some boundaries for your son and family. Know you can do this and be strong.

Hi OP, this sounds really tough for you and your son. Does he feel the need to be in charge, like he believes he is equal to you as an adult? My dd feels this way and she has a form of autism called Pathological Demand Avoidance. If I tried all the strategies suggested above it wouldn't achieve a thing with her. Look up PDA and see if anything resonates with you. It is not commonly known or diagnosed a lot but if your ds has it, it would explain a lot and you would have to use totally different strategies. Good luck OP.

If you want to be really clear...You could also tell him that every time he threatens you you are going to tell him what one of his presents is and he can watch you donate to a charity shop.

(Btw, I am a qualified SENCo and, despite what people may think, children with emotional difficulties often need explicit and consistent consequences to help them understand the boundaries and actually feel more secure.)

Bit surprised at the turn this thread has taken. A few pages ago it was pretty clear that this is a child whose ordinary expressions of anger and jealousy were meeting quite extraordinary consequences, beyond his understanding (no going to the park after school again ever?!)

And who has now learned from his parent/s and is turning threats against them, as it is the only way he now knows to regain some control.

Meanwhile, his environment remains highly controlling (no Fortnite). Exacerbating his anger and need for control.

We have not heard back from the OP but I imagine there is a time of reflection going on. I hope, some thinking about how to turn the dynamic around for this young lad.

And DON'T get me started on the armchair diagnoses. And the 'Kevin' references. And the people extrapolating from experience with very unwell teens and saying, ' this is how it started.' As far as I'm concerned, this is the worst of the internet ; completely and totally inappropriate given the small amount of information we have.

(Disclaimer: I know some of those posts have recommended parenting strategies based on an approach to PDA/odd rather than semi diagnosing. There may be some benefit in that if it is a route the OP is contemplating)

I had older kids and younger one. I told them that those that believed in Father Christmas received a present those that don't believe don't. There for one still"believe until 14. It worked for the younger one in that teenagers don't always believe and that is why they stop getting presents. It might be worth a try. Just as a statement of fact nothing else and follow through. So he gets a present from you but not an extra present from Santa if he tells. Make Santa's present the one he wants most.

I’m sorry but I think the idea of not giving presents to a 10 year old child is just mean. There is clearly some other issues going on but stooping to that level is not

Hi OP I really feel for you. Christmas is a really difficult time especially with children that have additional needs especially when you don’t know what they are yet. Getting referrals is really difficult as unfortunately they will only accept them if the behaviour is demonstrated in 2 different settings unfortunately at this age that is home and school. However I would definitely recommend going back to the GP with what his behaviour giving some examples will help and the effect this is having on you and your family as they should be able to refer him to children and adolescents mental health service or we have healthy minds in our area. As a previous poster has suggest looking around PDA May be helpful to you. With regards to the Christmas present situation all I can suggest is having a good think about the type of reaction you’ll get if he doesn’t get his FC gifts and whether the fall out for the rest of you is worth it? If the answer is no then there is still time to change track without backing down by thinking of another consequence if he does tell her. In addition she is still only 6 so there are numerous ways you can reassure her that her brother is being mean. I know time is running out to the big day but is there anytime between now and then when you and he of his dad and him (whichever one of you he seems to be able to talk to) can escape for an hour and have a chat? It doesn’t have to be full on interrogation but see if you can fine out what’s causing him to make these threats in this particular situation? My eldest has ADHD and we have used 123 magic to help with his behaviour which has been amazing and made a significant improvement in his behaviour and how we manage him, it put an end to lots of the shouting! What ever you decide I hope you have a lovely Christmas and best of luck in your quest to get you/him some help x

Reading back over the latest posts, I'm actually really shocked at the number of people who are apparently diagnosing your son with complex special needs on the basis of a few posts.

Most behaviorial difficulties in children are not due to special needs, although Dr Google might imply otherwise.

Furthermore, he is 10 years old, even if there is an underlying issue it can take years to get a solid diagnosis. It's important you feel empowered to develop effective strategies regardless of whether there is a future diagnosis or not. Getting a diagnosis will not fix anything, it just means it's even more important to have really effective, clear strategies.

I wouldn't be giving him presents. I know people say that is mean, but nobody needs to receive a shedload of presents, even if it is Christmas. In fact, he might actually learn that if he is malicious and unkind, then people will not be quite so generous with him.

Blackmail is not ok and this needs to be dealt with before he becomes a teenager and is even more unmanageable. Nasty kids turn into nasty adults, and I applaud you for genuinely wanting to parent him and raise him to be a good person.

I'm not going to add my opinion on what is happening as I don't know your son.
In your situation though I would just give him presents from yourself and not Santa. Simply because Santa only delivers to those who believe and he will still feel loved by you. This seems like a good compromise to no presents.

Sorry my message ended abruptly! As a mother of 3 perfectly normal- whatever that is- children, I understand frustration when the children try to get the better of you BUT this a 10 year old boy who is trying to push boundaries and needs to be shown where the lines are drawn, HOWEVER, think on in 10 years time when you have a beautiful charming 20 year old, how will that effect your relationship? That you couldn’t think of a more moderate way to rein him in than cancelling his Christmas!! The reason for the argument will be forgotten but I’m not sure the Cancellation will be. As parents we have to learn to be creative without turning everything into an ultimatum. Your child hasn’t learnt those skills yet, and nor will he if you don’t come up with a better alternative. Give him a chance to backtrack and come back from his bad choice, show him there is a different way to resolve his issues

I'd just say, no, you can't blackmail us and if you play up and ruin Christmas for anyone else there will be no presents ever again full stop!

He sounds like a piece of work!

What mummymeister said.......

Sounds like there is underlying issues there with him. I would probably say oh u won't get anything at xmas but I would never withhold my kids presents that to me could make his issues worse plus it will not makes his behaviour any better you said and will ruin ever1s xmas day. What I would do is sit and talk to him just you and him. Go to the doctor and keep going back again until they listen to you. You said that his behaviour has been like that since he was about 4, has the school picked up on it? I would try get it all figured out before it's too late to do anything about it

Sounds like you don’t like him. He’ll have picked up on that and you are now feeding a massive feedback loop. The only cure is to love him and give him loads more attention in general. Don’t threaten him; that’s the behaviour he is mimicking.

My son said this to his sister when he was about the same age - she was 5 years younger. I just smiled at him and said “oh dear, Father Christmas will be leaving you a lump of coal this year if you dont believe” he laughed and ran off. His sister was unfazed and quite enjoyed the thought that he would get a lump of coal on Christmas Day and nothing else. Christmas Day came and the very first present on top of his stocking was a lump of coal. he looked very worried and he never said it again!

@missbelle83 quite concerning that you are allegedly qualified in special needs. I understand boundaries and consistent consequences make all children (not just sen) feel safe etc but there’s consequences and then there’s withholding Christmas presents due to a threat made based on a lot of emotional anger towards his parents. I think your suggestion is very cruel. I think as another post mentioned , the op has to be very careful with how you handle things because the way you are going your son won’t want to know you as an adult. He is a child and he is crying out for something. He changed when you had your daughter. It’s not rocket science. Go see a therapist op and help him not punish him. He is the making of your parenting. He is attention seeking. Classic.

And don’t forget you said your son loved your daughter until she started school so maybe his feelings will change towards his brother when he starts school and his behaviour will get worse. There is something wrong in your relationship with him. You need to get to the bottom of it not just hand out superficial punishments that just make him resent you more.

Probably this situation's moved on by now but if not, could you perhaps explain to your ds the origins of St Nicholas and involve him in preparing things for dd. Ask him for ideas and try to do them together.

Don't deny him his presents as a punishment - it will make him feel worse, it will ruin Christmas for everyone and he will never forget.

Just tell him it's his choice to stop believing which means you have to get the presents but if his sibling believes santa will get them then he will.
However is he tells sibling and sibling stops believing then the money you spend on his will have to be halved to his sibling.

@coffeeoclock
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I'd just say, no, you can't blackmail us and if you play up and ruin Christmas for anyone else there will be no presents ever again full stop!

He sounds like a piece of work
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You'd honestly say this? To a ten year old child?? Your own ten year old child at that?! That there would be no presents ever again?!?

No child is a 'piece of work'; for whatever reason(s), there are difficulties with his behaviour but - and as much as I think this phrase is used too often and too lightly, it's apt here - behaviour is communication. Something is underpinning this - be it emotional difficulties, an undiagnosed neurological condition, or plain excessive testing of boundaries : it's telling his parents something, and not that he's a 'piece of work'.

I was at pains to point out that I - like anyone on the Internet - am in no position to diagnose anything. But often people speak from their own experiences - having had experience with children with ASD/ASD-PDA/ODD/ADHD, there are behavioural traits described that fit with the profiles. This doesn't mean he has any of these, but it can be worth trying parenting strategies based around these regardless. I would start with ODD strategies if it were me, as there doesn't seem to be much to lose by trying.

And no, a diagnosis doesn't change anything, and yes, the behaviours still need dealing with - but having that diagnosis makes it easier to: a) access any support that might be available (sadly lacking everywhere, but oftentimes condition-specific support is only available to children with a diagnosis); b) to get some understanding for your child in school and other situations (although he doesn't seem to have many difficulties there at the moment, even if he is compensating when there); and c) allow parents to understand what is fuelling behaviours and actions, and give a way forward with strategies and methods recommended for that diagnosis.

OP - I hope you have a lovely Christmas, one way or another. Keep pushing at your GP, as whether it's an emotional difficulty, a neurological condition, or a behavioural difficulty, you need help one way or another. Your deserve to have the best - and healthiest - relationship with your boy, and any help towards that (rather than the constant battles) has got to be worth the pestering.

Hi OP, my DS (now 13) used to be a lot like your DS. He was also aggressive, angry, occasionally violent. We wondered about possible ASD or similar. He needed to be in control. Our ds is the youngest rather than the oldest of 3, but as the only boy, was clearly going to be the biggest and strongest in a few years (and is in fact now taller than my DH). So we could see we were going to need a solution for the long term that wasn't just endlessly ramped-up confrontations, with us winning by punishing him harder. I read The Explosive Child, which made me suddenly realise that he might not be behaving like this deliberately because he was a little shit, but because he was a child who didn't know how to communicate his unhappiness better.

It's taken several years, but I can now say that my DS almost never has meltdowns or is aggressive any more. He is kind, empathetic, much happier and I have a fantastic relationship with him. It can be done.

The main difference compared to our troubled relationship of a few years ago is that my DS absolutely definitely KNOWS that I love him, am proud of him, will do what I can to support him, value him, care for him. There are still occasions where we need to discipline him by laying down clear boundaries so eg he will be banned from the computer for a day or two, after we have explained (unemotively) why we are doing that and what behaviour we want him to avoid/control, but he usually responds without argument as he appreciates this is part of us giving him clear and fair boundaries around his behaviour, and is not us just throwing our weight around to show him who's boss and make him miserable.

I do know what it's like to have 3 DCs, be pretty exhausted and to have one child acting up aggressively and unpleasantly. It's hard to 'like' that child in that moment and you are probably at the end of your tether.

But to try to see it from your DS's perspective, he feels he is 'bad', unloved, unloveable; that you do not care about him. He is jealous and scared that you love his sister more (and he's right). He is testing you to prove that you don't love him - and by cancelling his Christmas you would be confirming that belief utterly.

ALL your children deserve a magical Christmas - your DS included. You need to be kind to him and to yourself - you've all got yourselves into a vicious cycle and he can't get out of it, because he is a child and doesn't know how. You are the adult and have a duty to look after and love him - if you do that, he will copy that behaviour.

HoHoHoik put it well on P.2 -

"I'd step back from it, OP and take a different approach. Take him out somewhere for some one to one time and, while you're out, talk and listen. Ask him outright why he wants to upset his sister at Christmas, be prepared for a very blunt reply such as "I don't like her" but it'll give you a starting point for discussing it."

And you need to ask those questions, ask him how he feels and WHY he feels like that, as though you actually care about HIM. At the moment it sounds like you care about his sister's Christmas being ruined but don't care about him (and haven't in a long time). If you can find it in your heart to remember that though he's bigger than his siblings, he's still a child, your child, and that he needs to feel loved and cared for by his own parents, then ask him about he's doing from a place of genuine care and interest.

NB Change won't happen overnight. And it will involve one step forwards, two steps back sometimes. But eventually, you'll be looking at a different child, and a teen and young man you are proud of.

Good luck.

Might be a little out of the box but have you tried diet?

My kids were feral when they were little - crying and moaning all of the time. I put them on the failsafe diet and behaviour improved dramatically.

It might be worth a go.

joan12
Since when is well intentioned advice from fellow mums ‘armchair diagnosis’?

Are the mums who ask and/or reply to posts about chicken pox symptoms or kids threadworms ‘armchair medics’? Or are they just offering a friendly reply to a question?

I wasn’t diagnosing anyone else’s child, I simply suggest the OP chat to the SENCO about demand avoidance — coincidentally several other posters suggested similar.

It’s not armchair psychology to share ideas and fellow mum ‘wisdom’ — it takes a village to raise a child... these days the village is on Mumsnet.