To not give our 10 year old his Christmas presents?

[stardust22]

Our 10 year old is threatening to tell his 6 year old Sister that Father Christmas isn't real.

He is trying to use this information to black mail us. When he is given consequences he will say either cancel my consequences or I'll tell her the truth about Christmas.

We have said we won't put up with his behaviour & if he did tell her he would not receive any Christmas presents.

He is & always has been rude & aggressive. I don't know how much information to give as this has been on going since he was 4 years old.

My husband & I have discussed not giving Christmas presents to him previously but I have always said no way.

This year I am unsure..... I know it would cause massive upset & ruin our Christmas but he acts so entitled & really only cares about himself.
I don't think it will change his behaviour as nothing we have ever done has, we are just at a loss.

I think you can change the consequence to something non Christmas related that won’t spoil everyone’s day.

'If you tell your sister that, then what happens when your brother hears? Do you really want him to grow up knowing Santa isn't real?'.

'You do? OK, it's family presents for you. One from each person, no more. What about your bike/playstation/etc? Oh, that was a Santa present. Santa presents are for being kind and helpful.'

The issue is the type of blackmail - he's threatening to hurt somebody else to get his own way.

It definitely needs to be dealt with before he becomes the sort of man who controls a partner by threats of what would happen to the cat or dog if she leaves or smashes up the house to scare her into obeying him - they all have to start somewhere, and it certainly isn't on their 18th birthday that they become coercive.

By the way, the mother in Goodnight Mr Tom was a mentally ill woman who chained her child up during a world war and left her baby to starve to death in his arms. It's hardly the same as giving a child who is showing signs of understanding and enjoying the power of coercive control techniques four presents instead of thirty.

What is it that he wants so much that he is prepared to use blackmail to get it?

We have spoken to his school many times over the years, but because they don't have any problems with him at school they will not refer him. Do you have a family liason officer at your school? teaching staff at DDs school wouldn't refer her because she is fine at school but I cried on my family liason officer and told her I needed support and she has been brilliant. Also make a nuisance of yourself at the GP, there is so little funding for any support at the moment and you have to really push to get anything

As a matter of interest, how do you think he would react if his sister told the 19mo brother he adores, that Santa doesnt exist?

call his bluff - talk to your daughter first and explain about Father Christmas and the meaning behind it all. And that her brother is trying to spoil the fun for her.

Then he loses that power. For the rest - sorry, no ideas.

If you punish him for not doing as you wish, then be prepared for him to turn right around and punish you for not doing as he wishes. Your responses are a template for his.

wotsittoyou is right. It's a long term vicious cycle and you can't punish him out of it, you need to go back to basics and work on your relationship from scratch. Intrinsic motivation is key. Extrinsic motivation only ever achieves short term results and needs to be increased on an ongoing basis until it becomes unsustainable.

So sorry you are going through this. You sound very tired and in need of support.

Have you looked into positive reinforcement methods instead? It is far more effective to encourage even the slightest positive behaviour than to rely on negative consequences. The hardest part is resting your routine behaviour paths and trying to approach this situation where there is doubtless deep resentment and hurt afresh.

I would do it. If he knows the consequences first it is his choice whether or not he receives Christmas presents

@millimollimandi 100% agree 👍

Sorry, I posted & then saw more replies.

We have always followed through with consequences. We didn't go to the beach, he's missed a few friend's Birthday parties over the years. He had his 3DS removed for a year as I was fed up using it as a bargaining tool for him to behave.
We have removed toys but he doesn't care. He knows he will get them back eventually. We once threw away a toy & his response was he would ask Father Christmas for another one.

He is allowed to play on his 3DS on weekends only. He isn't happy with this as his friends get to play in the week. He isn't allowed to play Fortnite, all of his friends do, he isn't happy about this. (He has 12 boys in his class.)
He does feel hard done by but we have rules in place & this is what we feel is right for him.

The behaviour started before we were pregnant with his Sister. He absolutely loved his Sister when she was born. He was great with her until she started school really but now he can't stand her. He will play with her but is mean. Everything is on his terms, his rules when they play. He does want to upset her, he tries to take her Lego, any trading cards she has. He is all about himself.

We have had many, many conversations with him about his behaviour. We have spent lots of one on one time with him. Board games, card games, football, laser quest. We shower him with love, cuddles, attention.
We can have an amazing perfect day but if he doesn't get his own way with something he will get angry.

When he was younger I would take him to the park every Thursday after school. He would play wonderfully with friends. When it was time to leave I would give a 10 min heads up. He would leave fine in front of everyone else but as soon as we were in the car he on moan. He would kick the back of my seat so hard whilst I was driving. I had to pull over & I said I would not take him again.

We do need help with him, we can't afford private help. We have had numerous meetings with the school.

Do I try the GP again? Twice they have said they can do nothing as school have to refer. The school will not refer.

This is what comes of lying to children about Santa.
Your ten year old probably is modelling himself after activists that whistleblow the truth about lying corporations and governments.

In this case, you don’t have a leg to stand on because you’ve lied about Santa. And are threatening to punish him if he reveals the truth to his little sister. Just like corporations and governments do to adult whistleblowers.

I would be proud of him if he were my son. I’d say, you’re right she should know the truth about Santa, but you still get your consequences and your presents.

You are as bad of him, if you deal with behavioural issues by refusing to give him his Christmas presents. That won't help him learn better strategies.
Also, you'd have saved yourselves this problem if you hadn't lied to your daughter about Father Christmas. You can put that right by telling her the truth before he does.
But it does sound as if your ds has some real issues. Go back to the GP again and again until you get somewhere. He sounds as if he needs psychological help.
In the meantime, try to stay calm. Be moderate and be united. At ten, he'll know exactly how to push your buttons and how to divide and rule. It sounds as if you are afraid of him.

When is your son good ? He can't be bad 24/7 does he have any alone time with his father ?

Could he not have a man to man chat with him to say his behaviour is upsetting mum and what can we do to give her a Happy Christmas. They write a list together.

Things need to come from him for the situation to improve. I had trouble with my eldest when he hit 14/15 age years and it was a it much more scary then so try and nip it in the bud.

OP, I can see that because his threats are so extreme it’s hard to not either punish or capitulate. But what happens if you don’t? Have you ever just not given a consequence to see what will happen and if so what happened?

While you’re threatening to do x unless he doesn’t do y it’s impossible to know whether this is just a behavioural issue with him where he knows how to get what he wants.

you need to try and not threaten consequence with consequence. So if he says “if I don’t get a toy I will get a hammer and smash up the car” (I know that’s an extreme one but...) then you just respond that he’s not getting y and that’s the end of it. He threatens but do you think he would follow through?

He doesn't sound very happy to me........happy kids don't act like that. :(

Hang on...he used to be physically violent, but hasn't been for a year...is progress. He's clearly unhappy, has been very unhappy, but he isn't lashing out. And he's doing well at school, or at least isn't a concern? And is capable of adoring his younger brother?

This is such a mixed picture. I would prescribe one to one time with a parent each weekend, doing something nice or as simple as a hot choc in a cafe and a chat. I have a boy a bit like this and I found giving him a bit of time at bedtime to vent verbally was the key, he bottled up so many perceived hurts that his behaviour could sometimes seem like an overreaction. And sports, lots of sports to build self esteem, resilience and a sense of a place in the world.

I'd try all that before pathologising a little boy who may just need a firm steer to turn things round.

Oh OP. Can I send an unmumsnetty hug? This sounds really difficult for you all.

Your ds10 sounds like a very fearful little boy. For some reason he latched onto threatening you, early on - I'll smash up Daddy's car with a hammer - and felt he gained some control. He now keeps on threatening, needs to maintain that control. That must be a lonely place to be for a child.

Keep reassuring him, but regain control. We love you very much but we don't like it when you threaten us. We will decide what to do because that is our job. Your job is to have fun, to be kind, to love your little brother and sister and to help to look after them. If you get things wrong we will tell you so that you can learn. And if we have warned you of consequences, then these will happen. But we still love you and would much rather we can all have fun together.

Look for every opportunity to praise him. You are so kind to your little brother. You can be a very gentle person. You are really well behaved at school. We are very proud of you.

But you have threatened to with-hold presents because of his behaviour, and you need some way to follow through. Try to take the threat out of it. If you have got him, for example, 4 presents, you could say: It would be wrong to make your sister sad by telling her about Father Christmas. You are 10 years old now, old enough to help make Christmas special for her. We want Christmas to be a really happy time for us all, so we have decided that you may have your big Christmas present because we love you. But we will have 2 extra presents for you. If you can be really helpful and kind at Christmas, the we will give you those presents at bedtime. If you can't manage to be kind, then we will keep them safe until you can be.

It is so easy to be in a cycle of threat and carry through, but sometimes reward and praise give you so much more control.

HTH

He had his 3DS removed for a year as I was fed up using it as a bargaining tool for him to behave.

Instead of removing it, could you change your mindset so he has to earn it. It shouldn't be a bargaining tool. A written chart. He needs to do x, y, and z during the week. If it's not done he doesn't get it at the weekend. No discussion. He chose not to do x, y, z so he chose not to have it. Repeat.

I had to pull over & I said I would not take him again.
So, have you ever taken him to the park since that incident? Have you genuinely kept your word?
I'm going to assume not and that you have taken him to the park since then. You need to stop throwing wild consequences around that you can't and he knows you can't hold to.
It's ok to say "I'm really annoyed/angry about your behaviour and I'm going to talk to DH and decide what the consequences should be."
Or you could ask what he thinks his consequences should be.

I’ve read your update and he seems a obstinate child. Have you researched Oppositional Defiance Disorder? He fits a lot of the behaviour patterns and there are some great parenting techniques to use for ODD kids. Instead of ultimatums (do this or consequences), you’d probably get along better if you used choices. So for the example of the 3DS. Tell him how too much screen time is unhealthy and so he should only play for a certain # of hrs a week. Then let him choose and log when he plays his 3DS so long as he stays within the agreed # of hrs. ODD children need to feel in control.

Honestly he sounds exactly like my 8 year old who has a diagnosis of Autism. He appears fine to school as well. Definitely push for a referral.

On a practical front we give DS lots of warning for transitions so he can process it. He also does not understand cause and effect so punishments do not work at all. Neither do reward charts.

Sorry, I have no advice just solidarity!

OP, I can see that because his threats are so extreme it’s hard to not either punish or capitulate.

He's copying you OP! Except he's not capitulating anymore so you've now got a problem on your hands!

You definitely need to get more help for your ds (and you) regarding all the other issues, but definitely do not punish him for this because IT IS THE TRUTH. There is no Santa.