To think that there are too many personal insults and attacks on Tory voters

[Soimblue]

I’m really sick of it now. I don’t log on here to be called a cunt, told I hate disabled people and want to ruin the NHS.

I’m interested as to whether others feel the same or if it is just me. If it’s just me, I think I’ll piss off.

This tripe is why I am sick of MN, when you go out in the street and meet real people you are not met with this. Like much social media MN is populated by mice with megaphones. I have not yet insulted a labour voter and I am sure many of them are very nice people but there are a lot of the other sort on Mn

Nurses are getting the bursary back

HeIenaDove Mon 23-Dec-19 16:58:25
HelenaDove Mon 23-Sep-19 19:10:46
So sorry to hear this today. Martha and other staff who work for the company i hope you find something very soon.

There are members of staff who have worked for this company for years...............decades, who will now be applying for Universal Credit and will unfortunately find that benefits have changed in the last several years.

How long will it be before they are being treated as scroungers?

Seems the answer to that question is........................

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50885242

Thomas Cook staff say 'benefits system has failed them'
By Simon Browning
Business reporter
23 December 2019

When Thomas Cook collapsed three months ago, staff like Betty Knight, who had worked as cabin crew for 12 years, thought they'd be able to fall back on the welfare system.

But she was left bewildered. When she needed help she struggled to get it. Her application for job seeker's allowance was repeatedly declined.

She's one of dozens who have contacted the BBC in the same situation.

"I've worked hard. I've done everything expected of me to contribute to our society, but when I needed the Department for Work and Pensions, I haven't been able to access that. It left me reeling."

After being out of work for 11 weeks, Betty has now received around five weeks' of benefits.

Lots of her former Thomas Cook colleagues are in worse situations, telling us they have received nothing and have been poorly advised by their job centres. It stems from confusion over whether they are entitled to job seeker's allowance or universal credit as the tour operator's administration process remains ongoing.

Take Ian Begg who worked as a cabin manager for 14 years. "When we lost Thomas Cook we were just left to go out to pasture," he says. "My treatment by the job centre has felt like I've been thrown out again. They made me feel not worthy of benefits."

He was initially told to claim for universal credit which would have a five week processing time. During that five week period, he travelled to Manchester from his parents' house in Scotland for a weekly appointment at the job centre.

However, a day before the first payment was due, his claim was cancelled because he had received a one-off payment from the liquidators of Thomas Cook. He was then advised he should have applied for job seeker's allowance.

Mistakes mean claims being cancelled and long waits to recoup missed payments.

Other former staff have worse stories to tell but are afraid to speak out in case it affects their benefits claims
Ian has worked all his life and, like Betty, expected to be able to access state support after he was made redundant. He's now given up, and is using his savings and support from his family to live on, before he starts a new job with another airline in 2020.

Rebecca, another former Thomas Cook worker, was heavily pregnant when the firm collapsed. Any prospect of receiving maternity benefits from the company vanished, so she applied for state support.

Eight weeks after applying, however, the claim was cancelled because she'd been sent the wrong paperwork. She's now waiting for a new application to be processed.

"Due to the stress of everything, and the lack of help, I have found myself on anti-depressants and unable to enjoy Christmas and time with my baby," she says.

'The system has failed us'
Ian Begg says he too suffered mental health problems following the firm's failure. "For about two weeks after the collapse, I couldn't even get dressed. I couldn't face the world and stayed indoors. I had anxiety and was depressed."

Ian is managing to slowly move forwards, but many of his former colleagues are still having a tough time, he says, and the difficulties around accessing welfare support have made it worse. "It's wrong, the system has failed us

Betty Knight is in contact with hundreds of former colleagues through Facebook and WhatsApp support groups. They are a close-knit community.

One friend and her partner who both worked for Thomas Cook, say they were kicked out of their flat because the landlord knew they would struggle to pay the rent. They are now using their redundancy money to pay for a B&B. Betty says they feel trapped, unable to secure new accommodation or work.

Thomas Cook staff forced to turn to family for cash
Thomas Cook's new owner creates 1,500 new jobs
She reports other cases of former colleagues made homeless and living in shelters after landlords refused to allow them to stay on while they tried to find new employment.

Some former Thomas Cook employees have fared better. Ian Houlihan was a Thomas Cook pilot for more than 20 years. "I've been lucky, my job centre in Chorley has been great. I've had access to training. But my other colleagues have been treated appallingly.

Lots of staff talk about the huge disparities between what is on offer between different job centres.

Adele (not her real name) worked as cabin crew for 20 years. When she lost her job at Thomas Cook she was offered the opportunity of a job at Jet2, last week voted one of the UK's best airlines by Which? Magazine readers.

But, in line with its recruitment policy, Jet2 charges the applicant £700 to train on a four-week Jet2 course. Trainees don't receive any pay while on the course and the applicant fronts all costs. They then have to pass exams at the end to be guaranteed a job.

In some instances, job centres have given applicants £700 to complete this training but in other cases they have refused to pay. Adele says her job centre told her to borrow the money. "How can I?" she says. "I've been out of work for 12 weeks."

Jet2 said this was its standard recruitment process and would not comment further.

The Department for Work and Pensions has apologised. "We are sorry if people have experienced delayed payments and urge them to stay in contact with their job centre so we can urgently fix their claims.

"We know that losing a job is a distressing time for people. When Thomas Cook collapsed we were ready on day one to help the 11,000 people who lost their jobs.

"Our dedicated staff have helped thousands of those affected, including through home visits to those unable to reach the job centre and by fast-tracking applications so people are supported to find new work or training as soon as possible.

I voted Tory and I agree MN appears to be for the champagne London socialists.
I do not care at all what you all call me.
I own my vote and am a Conservative party member.
Boris will finance the NHS

@LexMitior, I agree completely, please don't mistake me for a supporter of such harmful beliefs and practices. I am depressed at the thought that so many people, recently, have allowed themselves to believe, that the Conservative party has their best interests at heart when the opposite is clearly the case. I'm not hopeful for the outcome.

Drabarni

I've no idea why you addressed that comment at me - you seem to be confusing me with another poster.

C8H

I must be sorry. That's before my evening sherry.

Missconduct
I'm not aware travellers are trying to move into people's homes. Just the common land and deserted would be fine to begin with. Investing in more traveller sites is a necessity, social housing should be for those who need/want not those who don't want to.
You can't get planning permission, the discrimination is unbelievable, from local residents and councils. It's fine until they know you are a traveller.

@Coppersulphate

You don’t know very much about your own party if that all you can say about it’s NHS policy. Do you actually know any Conservative politicians or are you one of those who does the flower arranging and congratulates the local party on a well organised raffle?

Half the Conservatives I meet are social climbers, desperate to escape any suggestion they are less than wealthy or middle class.

The other half are blue blood old Skool conservatives who don’t give a damn. They don’t mention politics because voting Conservative is the only option possible, and discussing otherwise would suggest you had a mental disorder. They are well bred people who have agreeable parties.

For example would you go up to my 82 year old father who spent 2 weeks collecting for the Poppy Day appeal and call him a ‘selfish murdering cunt’ if he mentioned he had been delivering leaflets for the conservatives? Or do you just reserve it for when you are behind the safety of your keyboard?

I think it would be worth mentioning to him that this particular Tory govt has massively let down the armed forces - both currently serving personnel and veterans.

“I'm all for personal responsibility, but it needs to apply to everyone. It seems to me that this notion is conveniently used to withdraw support from people who desperately need it” hear hear!

That list of things labour supporters “should” be doing is insulting. Firstly as has been said why does it only apply to labour voters. Secondly it takes no account of people’s circumstances. I couldn’t do any of that list.

“Unfortunately those of us who live it can only dream if it being hysterical.” Exactly!

It’s NOT exaggeration it’s NOT “hysteria” for those of us living it.

I don’t agree with disenfranchising older people, my grandparents who’d be in their 90’s now and my parents in their 70’s are/were all politically engaged well informed compassionate non-bigoted people perfectly capable of voting sensibly.

Indeed the people in their 70’s now are often the very people who fought against the racism, sexism and other bigotry that we’re aware existed more openly back in the 60’s/70’s/80’s

My parents were both shop stewards at different points and they stood up for the people they represented not only in terms of bigotry but things like health and safety - especially my dad who worked mainly industrial/manual type work. He actually was one of those instrumental in getting one of the health and safety regs we now have instituted.

My grandparents all served in wwii and against the fascism and bigotry of those times. They also campaigned and voted against the fascism and bigotry that was occurring in THIS country at that time, and there are several family anecdotes of when they stood up individually for people experiencing racism, anti-semitism and other prejudice. They’re all but one catholic Scots of irish descent and this was also very much the era of “no dogs no blacks no irish” on accommodation add and similar prejudice with jobs.

So please don’t dismiss older voters

“The fact that you think marrying an Italian means you aren't racist shows that you've a long way to go before you can judge anything.” The fact YOU don’t understand that there was strong anti-Italian and anti-catholic prejudice back then shows how ill informed you are. Marrying an Italian in certain parts of the Uk at certain points in our past would have been a major controversy. Some who married Italians then were cut off by their family and friends and experienced prejudice in trying to find places to live and jobs. Worryingly I am seeing/hearing more racist, sexist and other bigoted commentary and attitudes from much younger folk, im talking late teens early 20’s, a real regression which is both frightening and disappointing.

@Tanith I’ve reported your post because of your comment on the mentally ill. The vast majority of mentally ill people are perfectly competent and able to debate and vote - I’m one of them!

The idea that Conservatives have any progressive ideas is a myth. They are very poor at recognising they changes in society around them. Or if they do, they largely see such changes as a matter of moral failure.

I’d agree with that

@VMisaMarshmallow - that first degree you got would have been late 80’s then? Before the financial changes that have changed how most unis operate came in. I have friends who did their degree straight out of school and they DID get away with a certain amount of dossing but from late 90’s on that simply was no longer possible. It also as you say depends on where you studied and what you studied plus personal ability. There was one student on my last course who didn’t doss but certainly was incredibly naturally intelligent (gifted I’d say) who found the course very easy and gained a 1st easily with little time spent in the library or studying. There will always be outliers. But generally speaking the way things are now it is not possible to get a halfway decent degree without putting the work in. Though I agree there are issues with critical thinking mainly due to how school education is implemented now particularly in England.

Drabarni - I’m not ignoring your comments I simply don’t feel well informed enough to comment. Though I do agree that prejudice against ANY race and their traditional practices (unless directly actively harmful to others) is wrong.

Graph -90s for the first one, I’m a bit younger than you & I went to uni from school but it was likely slightly later than most as I was in and out of care for a bit and moved around between relatives so finished later. The second I just finished up a couple of years ago but distance learning and was way more interesting than my first degree but really didn’t feel like it required much work. However I spend hours up every night with one dc who needs me to hold her and calm her anxiety before she can sleep so I read then as standard, so it fitted in easily.

I think mostly it depends on subject though.

I’m well aware that the baby boomers could get a basic pass degree and walk out into high paid jobs where as now we need a 1st plus post grad plus work experience to get the same stuff level of secured income

This isn’t true. Anything less than a 2:1 has always been useless in the job market. A first today is worth a lot less than it was then too, less than 5% of graduates got them in those says. And less than 10% of the population had degrees at all.

Anything less than a 2:1 has always been useless in the job market.

A "good" degree has always been needed for some professions, but when I graduated (mid 1980s) if you were a bit switched on you could easily walk into a job and work up.

I graduated with a pointless first degree in a creative arts subject in 1986. This was absolutely no barrier to finding employment - I had a job within a week of leaving university and within 3 years was in a well-paid role at a FTSE company. I'm no exception - DH (graduated 1983) was a senior manager in a large London hospital within 10 years of a pass chemistry degree.

Where I work there is a massive qualifications gap between my younger colleagues, who almost all have STEM PhDs, and my generation of managers, lots of whom have not terribly relevant or impressive academic credentials.

The fact YOU don’t understand that there was strong anti-Italian and anti-catholic prejudice back then shows how ill informed you are. Marrying an Italian in certain parts of the Uk at certain points in our past would have been a major controversy.

Thanks for the history lesson but I am from an Italian background but still carrying the last name (almost it was changed in WW2). My great grandparents on my dad's side moved from Naples to the UK around 1891-1897. I'm aware of the prejudice against "eye ties" as they were often called but I am also aware that people like Italians were even more racist towards people who arent white like they are partly because of the discrimination against them but also just because they had bad views of people who are not white themselves. They would not see a marriage between a white and a black person as the same as a marriage between a English and Italian. Nor would any of my English relatives actually.

Too many of my family use our Italian roots to defend valid accusations of racism and it doesn't wash with me. Plus racism against Italians is nowhere what it was in WW2 so today it is even less relevant if you have married an Italian.

chanton, I graduated in 1982 when only 15% of people got to university. Of those about a third got a 2/1 or higher. I Had to apply to 130 firms and have 25 interviews before getting a job and that job was conditional on getting a 2/1 - we were only just starting to sort out the huge mess the 1970s had left and a whole generation of graduates many of whom never got graduate jobs were really struggling. There was no easy walking into graduate jobs even if you had a 2/1.

My in-laws just barely passed their degrees and walked straight out into well paid oil industry jobs, long time ago now but it certainly wasn’t necessary to have 2:1s then.

It was in 1986 when I graduated as a mature student. Anything less than a 2.1 was considered useless. It was the minimum the top accountancy and management consultancy firms would consider for their graduate schemes.

It probably depends on the job - law, accountancy, in the 1980s and proably earlier upper second essential, other jobs perhaps with not so difficult exams (!), taking nyone from the 15% of people who actually got a degree from a university Not a polytechnic) probably means they were all pretty bright anyway. (Hardly anyone at my school went to unviersity never mind a good oen, never mnd got a 2/1).

Also depends on the economy - sometimes we have booms when people are hard to find and other times crashes and no jobs at all.

some years ago I would have agreed with you, but now universal credit alone means that you deserve it. Universal credit has meant thousands of women forced into prostitution and more than 100.000 suicides among disabled people. You have happily supported that. Then there is Brexit, the open misogyny of many Tory MPs, the racism, the lies, the fact that we need more nurses, but they decided to both remove the bursaries and make nurses pay £9000 a year to get training.

Out of interest, how many Labour supporters on this thread and on mumsnet are actively supporting the party?

Genuine question btw.

It probably depends on the job - law, accountancy, in the 1980s and proably earlier upper second essential

Accounting is still one of those jobs that a degree isnt a necessity...though i should imagine it’s preferred in one of the big four

Out of interest, how many Labour supporters on this thread and on mumsnet are actively supporting the party?

What's the distinction between supporting and actively supporting?

“Out of interest, how many Labour supporters on this thread and on mumsnet are actively supporting the party?“
I canvas- is that actively supporting?

More than 100.000 suicides among disabled people

Where does this information come from please?

It may be something to do with this. But it doesn’t specify suicide.

welfareweekly.com/dwp-forced-to-admit-more-than-111000-benefit-deaths/