To think that there are too many personal insults and attacks on Tory voters

[Soimblue]

I’m really sick of it now. I don’t log on here to be called a cunt, told I hate disabled people and want to ruin the NHS.

I’m interested as to whether others feel the same or if it is just me. If it’s just me, I think I’ll piss off.

alsohuman I really don’t get the graduates/ labour voters are stupid argument at all and don’t understand why it’s been mentioned a few times on this thread.
I however don’t think it’s unreasonable to suggest that many young, intelligent labour voting recent graduates have little experience of the ‘real world’ and haven’t mixed with a range of people.

@DdraigGoch your perception of students and graduates is massively outdated and inaccurate.

I've been a uni student twice both times as a mature student having originally left school at 16 with no more than basic qualifications, so I kinda have a foot in both camps of "university of life" perspective and graduate perspective.

Nobody gets away with dossing through uni now and that hasn't been possible for decades. You have to maintain a decent level of marks and attendance to keep your funding and therefore your place.

Unis have been required for some time now to maintain good records of attendance and any students who labour under the misapprehension they can doss is soon disabused of that idea by both the uni and loans company.

I was particularly surprised my 2nd time around by the huge intake number at the start of the course but upon discussing with lecturers learned that was to allow for the large dropout rate by the end of the first term - not just those thinking they could doss losing their place, but students deciding they'd prefer a different course, or different uni or that uni isn't for them at all plus a small number of students leaving for personal and health reasons. The uni needs to ensure their income stream.

Come the last week before Christmas break I noticed the numbers left had significantly reduced.

Mainly because the very annoying students (the ones likely to talk through lectures, flake out on group assignments) who didn't take it seriously had gone.

In terms of so called "Mickey mouse" degrees - again the facts don't bear out the perception.

Degrees aren't just created out of thin air, they have to show they have value and be ratified by the overseeing authorities.

I find it very interesting that you selected "film studies" - we are absolutely ridiculously snobbish in this country about certain subjects and this is one of them. And that snobbery is doing our country a disservice.

The film industry is hugely successful and profitable.

I actually went to 2 unis with a strong focus on modern media and 1 of those was a Russell group uni.

My 2nd degree was in a subject with a little crossover into that area.

Film studies - do you know what such a degree covers? Do you know it covers areas like philosophy, politics, sociology, psychology, economics, media influence, feminism?

Quite honestly you sound like a particular type of "university of life" person who actually feels insecure about their lack of education and has a certain attitude to all graduates.

I'm also from a military family and have come across that attitude a lot before with them, but most of them while teasing graduates/officers do actually understand that a hunger level of education has real life applications and benefits.

The state pension will be classed as income for mixed age couples who now have to claim UC instead of PC.

benefitsinthefuture.com/the-mixed-age-pension-credit-cut-what-does-it-really-mean/

Gareth MorganJanuary 20, 2019 at 12:59
The state pension is used as income in the UC calculation. For very many people that will stop entitlement to UC and, amongst other things, any passported entitlements. such as prescriptions for the younger partner, in England, could be lost.

ReplyLaurel EllisJanuary 21, 2019 at 20:42
Thats appalling! Surely the State Pension of the older person should be protected. What a terrible situation, and for very vulnerable people

“For example I’m sure you are aware about 25% of food bank use is due to the 5 week wait for UC.”

But that’s there on purpose, that’s government policy, not an unexpected consequence of it being implemented...

This is the first election I've properly felt interest in. I've always voted and wanted Labour to get in. When they didn't I was annoyed/upset - but just carried on as before.

Are people usually this angry/resentful - furious/bitter??

I feel the anger that others do, this time. Also I have a disabled daughter and I look around me and am astonished that people could have voted for the Tories. I suppose the anger/disbelief must be worse because we've had 9 years of this shit and now are in for (at least) another 5 more. It's all very likely to get much worse.

So - I've answered my own question. The fury and division was probably never this bad before - but that's because the country was previously not in such a desperate state - and previously there was not the evidence that we have now to show that voting the Tories in was/is an obviously selfish choice.

tabularhasa
Yes I’m not entirely moving the responsibility from the govt to the staff on that one. My point was just that I don’t disagree with universal credit as a concept to prevent those on benefits earning more than those who work but the implementation has been poor.

dustyo1
It’s never been this bad in my lifetime (was perhaps similar when Margaret thatcher was repeatedly elected)
But I think it’s mostly because of the rise of social media in the last few years and people hiding behind keyboards to say offensive things about those with different views.
I think it started with the brevity vote actually.

Sorry ‘Brexit’

The left have always been the same, their hair-shirt mentality can only be laughed at, they have some weird idea that they are good for the country. As anyone who has experienced a genuine Labour government, none since the 70s knows that they have the economic intelligence of a maggot, (sorry to upset maggots). No Labour government has ever left the country in a better economic state than they found it.

@Smileyaxolotl1

Firstly thank you for taking the time to read my post - length of my posts has gained me some quite nasty criticism on here but they come from a place of genuine concern and passion.

Secondly thanks for engaging in a logical and polite way with me when we clearly have very different opinions.

I don't necessarily agree that labour would not do much better regarding the issues within the nhs. I've worked in the nhs and for the last almost 15 years have been a patient requiring a lot of support from them. So from both of those perspectives I have seen many problems that could and should be addressed if the political will were there. Civil servants can only do as the govt of the day allows/instructs. Any govt could legislate for change.

But where we differ is I believe that labour would try and effect change while maintaining the nhs, whereas tories especially this current govt have never really believed in the nhs and would absolutely privatise as soon as they think they can get away with it. They never wanted it in the first place.

I’m in favour of a lot of policies that are very unpopular such as universal credit, bedroom tax and the poll tax. However poor implementation, lack of exceptions and lack of forward planning has meant that they have all caused massive issues

I would actually agree with you on much of that.

I'm currently still on "legacy benefits" mostly which are a total bloody nightmare to navigate.

In theory a UC type benefit where claimants are paid calendar monthly (which makes sense as most bills and rent are paid this way) and where those able to work are empowered to facilitate a graduated return to full time working or might only be able to find part time work initially receive a graduated reduction in benefits as their wages increase without ending up worse off, or where people are able to receive support during times when they may temporarily need to reduce working hours perhaps due to caring responsibilities is of course totally logical and fair. BUT as you say how it's been implemented means it's not treating claimants fairly. And several of the issues are not down to civil servants (who bear the brunt of angry, scared and frustrated claimants) but are legislated ideological nonsense - like the 5 week wait. There's absolutely NO reason for this except to punish claimants and deliberately make their lives even harder.

The bedroom tax - again kinda makes logical sense in terms of it doesn't make sense to eg have a lone pensioner living in a 4 bed family home when that's a far bigger property than they require . But again too much stick not enough carrot. And no understanding or acceptance of the logistics.

I've recently fallen foul of this issue myself, I'm in a 2 bed social housing property and my adult dd recently got her own place. All well and good and part of life. But it means I'm subject under current regulations to the bedroom tax. Due to my current health issues a house move is absolutely not something I would cope with right now, especially with no support from mh services. I'm fortunate that I live in Scotland and the Scots govt have put measures in place to mitigate this but it still required about 10 days of organisation on my part with the support of a welfare advice worker to get that mitigation put in place.

Even IF I were up to moving there are NO 1 bed properties currently available where I live - private or social. So there'd be nowhere for me to move to anyway!

Most parts of the country have very few one bed properties so where are those in my position supposed to go?

There have recently been 2 new estates built here in my area of private properties for sale - none smaller than 3 bed and very expensive. They likely won't sell to locals but to wealthy people who will buy them as holiday homes (scenic/coastal area popular with tourists in summer but otherwise a very deprived area).

Just as other parts of the Uk have experienced the increase in local homes becoming 2nd/holiday homes has pushed up local housing and rental prices.

The idea that the tories will solve the very problems they caused seems incredibly naive to me. Why would they? What have they to gain by doing so? If they're genuinely opposed to these problems existing why did they create them in the first place?

It doesn't make sense to me.

If you want change you don't vote the same govt back in.

34"000 people in my town returned a Tory MP.

Last night several cars in one road were smashed in a mini crime spree as well as a pensioners bathroom window.

Uproar on the same page that supported that MP...................because the police couldnt/wouldnt attend.

They can bleat all they want, but the fact is the Tories won so that makes the rest of them losers I'm not a Tory voter but I think labour voters on MN are just nasty.

graphista
Thank you for your engagement with me, I agree with quite a lot of things you say though we are obviously politically different.
I think it’s really important for labour to be a strong and viable opposition so the tories are pressured to make changes. Such a large majority is not ideal.
Don’t want to be patronising but more respectful conversations like this would be helpful on forums such as mumsnet and are much more likely to change people’s minds and make them think and hold politicians to account.

Don't vote Tory then?

“My point was just that I don’t disagree with universal credit as a concept to prevent those on benefits earning more than those who work but the implementation has been poor.“

See, the thing is, it’s the actual policy that’s causing problems not the implementation.

A universal benefits system that streamlined benefits and made them both easier to claim and made sure people were rewarded for working without also plunging financially vulnerable people into food bank use could have been designed, that’s not what the government chose to do.

So it is Tory policies causing problems there rather than anything else.

motherofallchristmases
As I’ve already said I believe you have to vote for a best fit. The conservatives are not perfect and I probably only agree with about 50% of their manifesto but I only agreed with about 20% of Labours and less of the other parties.

YANBU, OP - we all have our views, and even if we sometimes disagree I'm not sure what those who fling insults and obscenities hope to achieve

Don’t want to be patronising but more respectful conversations like this would be helpful on forums such as mumsnet and are much more likely to change people’s minds and make them think and hold politicians to account.

Totally agree.

I get angry, scared and frustrated at how things are right now but when discussing I TRY to remain polite, not let things get personal and try and discuss the issues/policies - but I'll admit I'm not always successful at this I'll admit.

I have one family in my circle who half of them are disabled in some way including sen, one is a teaching assistant in a special needs school and frequently posts about the cuts and lack of funds, yet they all voted Tory. I genuinely don't understand that.

They are otherwise lovely caring people but they believe the myth that tories are better for economy and don't seem able to marry that voting Tory = the very things they complain about (lack of sen funding, lack of support for disabled, not enough gp appointments, not enough police [one part of family was burgled this year, police weren't able to attend for a few days])

We've had discussions particularly in the lead up to the election and there was a bit of good natured teasing in the form of tagging each other in memes promoting "our" side of things.

But it all remained respectful and kind. It is possible - although can be difficult

How can you say the Tories should be in charge of the economy when they are pushing Brexit. The rest of Europe just sees Brexit as the UK putting sanctions in place against themselves. Hardly economic genius.

Have to say though I disagree with

to prevent those on benefits earning more than those who work

As in I think the focus should be on making work pay, not punishing benefits claimants.

Wages are ridiculously low and this has largely been facilitated by policies like working tax credits where it APPEARS to be helping the claimant
but is actually subsidising the employer.

It's not just working tax credits or the element that replaced them in UC but also in terms of working people needing to claim housing benefit/council tax rebate and their UC equivalents.

Somebody working full time really shouldn't need in a developed country to claim state support to pay the most basic of bills.

For a country to be a true economic success though, everyine has to feel it...money needs to circulate.
I was much better off under a labour government. I don't mind making a few sacrifices to help the deficit however, it did mean thay i had less money to spend and therefore local businesses and supermarkets alike had less of my cash.
Still, why would the powerful elite careabout small fry like myself?

graphista
I am very much in favour of increasing the lower limit on taxation (which I think the tories have done a few times since they have been in power) an easy way to put more money in the pockets of workers on low wages and requires little costly administration.
Good luck with your problems and I genuinely hope that things don’t get worse for you under this government.

I think it's terrible people have called you a cunt. But I'd rather be a cunt than a tory.

Thank you but actually what I need is for things to improve not just not get worse.

I'm only 47 I could with support be a working and productive member of society instead I have for over 2 years been left with minimal support at best.

If things continue as they have been I think it unlikely I will get support to be that person for at least 5 years possibly much longer.

Since when did tory voters become the "snowflakes" they so despise?