To think that there are too many personal insults and attacks on Tory voters

[Soimblue]

I’m really sick of it now. I don’t log on here to be called a cunt, told I hate disabled people and want to ruin the NHS.

I’m interested as to whether others feel the same or if it is just me. If it’s just me, I think I’ll piss off.

The tories aren’t reducing income tax though are they? And they are promising more money for the nhs and education.

This is the problem with the simplistic arguments, it’s alienating and it’s part of why Corbyn’s labour lost, divisive politics is a risky gamble.

It is the same with people who can only afford to buy to let homes if they are allowed to treat the tenants like shit and have dirty properly which us falling to bits. Or if someone can only have a business if they pay people peanuts. You just arent rich enough to be an employer.

We would have paid more tax yes, but all this tax (& VAT) would mean we couldn’t pay the kids school fees so they’d go back in the state system. Corbyns high spend manifesto draining big business would put our jobs at risk, so the private health care might go and we’d be using the nhs. If we then had problems with the mortgage, again we’d be looking at state support. I could go on and on

If a small amount of extra tax - I seem to remember it was about £20 a month on £80k - would prevent payment of school fees, you must live pretty close to the edge. You wouldn’t get state support with your mortgage and how often do you actually use your private healthcare? Most healthcare is delivered in the primary sector.

It really amuses me when private education and healthcare are positioned as an altruistic choice.

@reallychristmasaaagain

They are barely replacing some things they took away.

I agree with that @GailCindy and as a blairite frankly it makes me furious that labour ran an awful divisive campaign and now take no responsibly for their defeat ‘won the argument’ my left foot.

But the fact is the tories ran a campaign on increasing public spending from current levels. Not murdering people or further austerity.

Labour and the left needs to go back to big tent inclusiveness to get itself in power.

The Tories have already removed protection of refugee children and the preservation of worker’s rights from the Withdrawal Agreement..

It really amuses me when private education and healthcare are positioned as an altruistic choice

There is also the fact that NHS staff often provide large parts of the care which are meant to be private especially in hospitals where both are provided on site. This was a big problem where I had my son (same place as Princess Kate). The NHS midwives would end up providing some care for private patients who would be paying their doctors and private staff thousands for their care.

I know it happens on the ward my friend does HCA too. They have a private bit which is often covered by NHS staff for private staff breaks. NHS staff are forced to do it by bosses who tell them that if something happens to an unattended private patient, all nurses and HCAs on duty will be blamed so everyone should answer buzzers and attend to their needs. They have spoken to union who back them but it has not changed much.

OP it’s just because the internet is anonymous - so it allows people the freedom to say what they are really thinking. In the past people just kept their views about Conservative voters to themselves or just chatted with people they knew well.

Gail I think most don’t think that. I think most think that labour will sink the economy loosing them their jobs and any means of enough tax being paid to support those with disabilities. I think they think that while a few may die in the meantime that in the long run the tories will pull the country out of the rut and less will die than if labour got in and spent away every penny that’s ever been made. I think most people think that macro economics is the same as micro economics and don’t realise that the very right wing IMF advised DC to up public spending in times of recession to at least 2% to boost the economy and job opportunities. Critical thinking isn’t something most people turn to when they are bombarded with how we have to tighten our belts by msm and they see a few cuts for the most vulnerable now as the same as their cb cuts or their second car going, and they think that in the long run it will pan out ok for both themselves and those most vulnerable. And that’s before Brexit happened and now we have many thinking let’s get our jobs back from the grabby immigrant too.

Most people don’t think let’s kill off the most vulnerable while we get better tax breaks, most people just can’t read through the lines that are fed to them daily, don’t have any idea of how differently macro economics is from microeconomics and don’t see past their experience of things. And they don’t get how fucking complicated EU is (most politicians don’t get how complicated EU is so in no way should a referendum ever have happened. That’s like having a referendum to ask us what we want for Xmas. We vote in mps, they should do their fucking job instead of throwing back issues they can’t grasp to the general public).

There was a discussion on this with a radio presenter.

They were analysing the user figures of social media (Twitter, FB, Instagram, LinkedIn etc).

That basically a small minority of vocal people take over (especially Twitter) and impose their views. What this does is make people withdraw, keep silent about what they really think and the 'prevailing view' is not representative then. That this is a concerning trend because important debates are not happening because of bullying and intolerance.

This is why for me, it is a point of honesty and integrity to be as tough as nails and stick to my intellectual guns whatever disdain and insults are thrown my way.

There is no way on God's green earth that some leftie will ever sneer or virtue signal me into backing down, because they don't like my stance. That is never going to happen.

What did the social economist Thomas Sowell say? "Virtually no idea is too ridiculous to be accepted, even by very intelligent and highly educated people, if it provides a way for them to feel special and important. Some confuse that feeling with idealism."

and

"Much of the social history of the Western world over the past three decades has involved replacing what worked with what sounded good."

I think Trump/Brexit is a turning point. It has signalled that the silent majority are tired of the liberal left and their morally anointed Big Government delusions.

Who you vote for doesn't reflect who you are as a person

Yes. It does.

Totally.

See to me even if you did think Tory policies were better long term, you would have to DEMAND that they change funding in schools, universal credit and those things to stay in. The fact people can vote for them even though they are doing this to people and we read it in the papers every day about terminally ill people and those who have died during benefit appeals of their illness tells me that they don't care or dont believe it.

I want them to just say though that they believe that if a few die in the short term that it is okay.

the Tories didn’t run on a campaign of removing protection of refugee children though did they? And we don’t know what the policy implemented will be on the ground. I’m sure there are many Tory voters dismayed at this move. At the end of the day, labour lost this - they should’ve run a better, more optimistic and less divisive campaign.

I’m sure there are many Tory voters dismayed at this move
I'm not.

Why do you want Tory voters to admit they’re bastards who don’t care etc? What possible good will that do? Why not put your energy into demanding labour has a leader and a team that can win.

Labour should’ve bloody won against Boris and it’s not the voters’ fault so many of them took a look at Corbyn and thought no thanks.

Cuppy- is that something you apply as a universal standard? So in the US people had the choice of voting in a known sexual predator or a woman whose publicly excused her husbands many sexual assault accusations. Or not voting at all, but I’m presuming you’d judge them for that too right?

If we lived in countries where we had a variety of options that covered the full spectrum of voter issues then maybe it would be fair to say people are who they vote for. But even then it would probably still be muddled by msm influences and the bias that includes. One thing that’s 100% sure currently is that every political party is aiming to abolish women’s rights yet I very much doubt most voters want this, especially the 51% of the electorate that are women, but by your logic that’s what we would have to conclude from every voters choice if we follow your logic.

If a small amount of extra tax - I seem to remember it was about £20 a month on £80k - would prevent payment of school fees, you must live pretty close to the edge.

I was more meaning the VAT on school fees which would tip us over what would be affordable. But yes, the extra income tax (a few hundred a month) would be tight.

You wouldn’t get state support with your mortgage

I mean if we lost the house and needed help to live.

and how often do you actually use your private healthcare? Most healthcare is delivered in the primary sector.

Sadly quite a lot. Services are very poor in our area. We also use the private GP app more and more as the majority of GP’s in our surgery are part time and it’s very difficult to get an appointment.

It really amuses me when private education and healthcare are positioned as an altruistic choice.

I wasn’t at all making that point as you well know. I was trying to show in simplistic terms how Corbyn’s maths don’t add up. Taking so much from us may mean we would start taking more from the state. I don’t think it’s sensible to idealise that £20 a month off everyone earning £80k a year is going to solve all the social problems in this country. Even with free broadband.

I’m glad I amused you though

Gail you are not following the line of thought, most Tory voters think that it’s a better option than a labour government as they believe labour will kill off much more people in the long run by destroying the economy and putting way more vulnerable people at risk. So you could demand they admit that they don’t care about the few dying but they’d be demanding you don’t care about the many who labour will kill off in future.

I think some Tory voters will be thinking fuck those lazy fuckers they don’t deserve to live, the same way some people voting labour are also those who voted for Brexit because of those foreigners stealing all our jobs. I don’t think either minority is representative of all Tory or all labour voters.

“A few hundred a month” is what some people have to live on, if you’d seriously have lost that amount under a Labour government I bloody despair. If you lost your house, you’d have to rent, like millions of others. However, if you’re in the income bracket you imply, the chances of the kind of catastrophic scenario you paint happening to you are vanishingly small. Those at the top always seem to flourish.

Obviously the traditional labour voters who were pro Brexit jumped ship this time, or simply didn’t vote as tories didn’t increase their votes much labour just lost lots.

I want them to just say though that they believe that if a few die in the short term that it is okay

Is this so you can justify being morally right because you didn't vote Tory? I hate to break it to you, but people do die, no matter how much money you throw at them. The horrible fact is there always has to be concessions somewhere as there's not an infinite amount of money. I'd have liked to have voted Labour as I did prefer some of their policies in certain areas. However overall it was completely wrong and would have caused a lot of damage to the economy (In my view, perhaps I'm wrong but I honestly can't see where all this money to do everything they said they would do in 5 years was going to come from. £20 a month tax just from those earning over 80k doesn't seem to be enough to me)

I was more meaning the VAT on school fees which would tip us over what would be affordable. But yes, the extra income tax (a few hundred a month) would be tight

If your extra income tax would be a few hundred a month under Labour's proposals you're on a fucking hell of a lot more than £80k p/a. If losing a 'few hundred' a month would put you at risk of losing your home on an income like that you seriously need help with your budgeting skills. Your income is more than the average wage of four people.

I run an entire family on £18k p/a. I haven't lost my house.

Why should I take a chance to vote for a party that will say, effectively, ‘your turn to lose now’ if their policies mean we struggle?

It’s all very well saying that right thinking people vote to benefit others but the result of elections doesn’t bear that out, you have to make sure your own family is going to be okay first that’s life.

Labour’s constant attacks on ‘the few’ were relentlessly negative.

@soimblue unfortunately as with all pro-Tory threads it is now a thread for left wing holier than thou Labour voters to lay more hate on Tory voters. Just nod, smile and say "yes dear" you can't argue with stupid!