To support banning this person

[DownToTheSeaAgain]

Close family member is hosting Christmas. Everyone is looking forward to it. One of the other (much loved also family member) invitees is a recovering alcoholic and unfortunately they have history for relapsing at Christmas. We have just found out that this has happened.
Host has said that alcoholic family member can't now come at Christmas. We've had this scenario before with alcoholic family member coming and it has been awful. Physically and emotionally. Problem is there are DC involved and banning her means the kids get banned too. It is not possible to host kids without their parent.

AIBU to support hosts decision even though it is tough on the kids?

What is her behaviour like? What does unbearable look like?

Some alcoholics put the kids to bed and then drink when they're asleep. Or sit in the corner and ignore them whilst the kids sort their own dinner/breakfast etc. But when the person is in a situation with other adults, especially ones they perceive as judging them, they can then be obnoxious and start rows etc whereas they would have just ignored the kids at home.

@spingly it makes no fucking difference to SS what the OP thinks.

I removed my sisters kids from her care on 2 occasions - once when she left a 10 year old looking after a 3 year old and an 18 month old for 24 hours while she went out in a bender - and both times police and SS turned up at my door and forcibly took the kids back.

Sister got a slap on the wrist from police and some extra visits from her social workers for 'support' in the following few weeks.

You don't seem certain whether the other parent knows about this recent relapse. You need to be sure that they do know and will be caring for the children, not just assuming. It would be negligent of you not to check they will have a responsible adult with them. You need to contact them and be sure there is something in place for these kids and if not, you or someone else who is able and willing should be bending over backwards to do it yourselves. If you can't or won't find someone, then call social services so they know the children are not adequately cared for.

Also unless the non-relapsing parent is abusive then surely they should have custody of the children? Why wouldn't you support the children being in a more stable home with the sober parent?

Also everything @gingerkittykat said. As the child of an alcoholic who abused me, it was devastating to learn as an adult that all of our extended family knew what he was like and how awful he was to us and did nothing. Not one person in my wider family ever tried to help me and honestly I resent them all a bit for it now as a 31 year old.

@LemonAndGin it does make a fucking difference, because if I thought SS were wrong I'd be stepping up and have the children over at Christmas! I'd also be kicking up a fucking stink non stop!

I think you've made it very clear op that her and her children are not welcome at your family Xmas.

Very clear indeed. You hope the kids will be with the dad, but have no idea, but when it comes to it, she and her children are not welcome. For all the soft soaping, the element of steel is clear. You don't want her there and you will exclude her children and leave them to it.

I'd leave the thread there if I was you. There is nothing more to be gained from it,

OP will you speak with their father and see if there is a plan in place for Xmas day? Or sooner?

@spingly how would you have the children of your sibling over at Christmas if their parent said no?

Would you go and forcibly remove them from your siblings house?

What would you do when the police turned up to take them home - would you refuse to hand them over, get arrested, and the have the children taken back to their parent anyway?

spingly
You have no right to keep the children. That’s the point. The parent can just send the police to get them back.

How extremely sad. However, I feel that the children need to come first. Warn her about her behaviour ahead of time. Any problems on the day, either stick her in the spare room or get someone to run her home if possible. But please support those poor kids.

@LemonAndGin no I meant the children with the parent! I've had experience actually so not sure why you're telling me how it fucking works! Maybe read my fucking posts?

I think you're doing the right thing OP. Those of us who have family members with destructive behaviours understand that at some point you reach a breaking point.
It's awful for the children involved but you have children too. Why do is their need to have a Christmas without the threat of alcoholics bad behaviour less important then the other children's right to spend time with you?
In an ideal world of course you would scoop the kids up and let them spend Christmas with you safe and happy. It's not up to you where the kids go though and you can't insist that either parent lets them come alone even if it is best for them.
I've had my sister trying to kick my door down and the police visit me when my sister accused me of kidnapping her 15 year old daughter when she refused to live with her mum anymore because of her abusive new boyfriend. She had two other children living with her at the time, it broke my heart to leave them in that house but I couldn't force them to come to me and the SS do not have the resources t intervene.
Things are not black and white and it's easy to say what you would do when you don't live it.

As an aside, if you were to have the children without her, they would worry about their mother all the more. I say this from experience. I would do my best to accommodate them all. Even if it means forking out for a taxi for her/them? What are the logistical difficulties. Surely she doesn't drive?

@spingly I've read your posts and you clearly didn't read the OP and clearly don't have a clue.

No you don't care about the children. You are banning then from a family Christmas because of their mothers behaviour.

Would you go and forcibly remove them from your siblings house?

If my sibling was rolling abround drunk while in charge of their children, then yes.

At no point have I said that the DC are not adequately patented. They have separated parents, both in recovery, one of whom seems unable to stay sober. But both are, in their own way loving and caring parents.

Everything you've said about both parents points otherwise. Addicts don't make adequate parents and neither do parents who use everything they can against each other. My df was a functioning alcoholic (military...fun scenarios like making him coffee as an 8 year old whilst the military police frog marched around the living room until he was he was sober enough to go and investigate an airplane crash somewhere because despite being on call he was very very drunk) and a mother who was emotionally abusive. They also fought like cat and dog. People made excuses, called them adequate, said it was fine. The damage they did, that our wider family let them do was immense. After the birth of my first child I was diagnosed with c-pstd and attachment issues.

At the end of the day, it's up to the host and you to do whatever your conscience allows but don't expect a relationship with your nephews and nieces when they are older.

PP have made the good point that OP and her family cannot have the kids if their mum refuses permission. If SS consider her an adequate parent or at least not meeting the threshold for DC to be taken away, extended family do not have the right to remove them.
There's also the fact that the DC might not want to spend Christmas away from their mum. She might be a drunk, but she might treat them in a way they find acceptable. She's their mum; they love her.

@LemonAndGin I did read the OP and I have got a clue actually! You came on with the aggressive it doesn't make a "fucking" difference! You sound like you've had a drink and gone into that horrible aggressive thing that drinkers do..

You don't have the monopoly on knowing what's right or wrong.

Another one who thinks you are wrong. The father is not using this recent lapse back into alcoholism as a way to get at your sister, but is trying to to do the right thing for his children.

I get that you are gutted that you won’t see your sisters children at Xmas, but I suspect they would much rather be with the sober parent than fretting and having a miserable time of it with the pissed one.

If I were you I’d go no contact with the drunk, and support your ex BIL and invite him and the children to events.

You never know it might be the wake up call your sister needs.

Enabling your sister to be a functioningalcoholic parent means she is never getting sober. She has to hit rock bottom first.

My mother was an alcoholic and everyone on my mums side hated my dad because my mother painted him to be a nasty man. Behind closed doors the very opposite was true. You have no idea what having an alcoholic parent can be like, unless you’ve lived that hell you won’t understand. Best thing you’ll ever do for those kids is get them in full care of their sober dad, whether you like him or not, and support him.

For those of you who think the host and I are evil incarnate you are, of course, entitled to your views. However I know that the host hasn't made this decision lightly and if we believed that the kids were in actual physical danger while with their dad then we would, of course, do something more.

However as some people have pointed out SS are not as actively involved in this sort of case as we might imagine.

I am expressing my sadness that alcoholism can be such a destructive force in families. I feel incredibly sad that to date, my extensive efforts to help have, in the long term improved things not one iota. I love the DC. I am saddened that they won't be there.

I wish things were as they were before all this came along.

Also, I'm beginning to wonder about this 'relapsing at Christmas' business. The 12-step superstition that alcoholism is incurable and that an 'alcoholic' can never return to moderate drinking is a superstition, which other treatments for alcohol addiction have found to be bullshit.
If her 'relapse' consisted of having one glass of prosecco at the office party, and she might fancy another on Christmas day, but family members have been sold the false idea that she is now back to vodka on her cornflakes and forgetting to feed her DC, maybe a little more application of sense is necessary.

Totally @Bluntness100

This thread is seeking peer consensus /permission for one thing whilst dressing it up as permission for something else.

I am saddened that they won't be there

Well then pull your finger out and make sure that happens.

Emotional trauma can be much worse than physical danger in the long run.

How simply awful that you and the host have put your own - relatively minor - needs of Christmas above the needs of young children in very difficult circumstances.

You asked for views but you don't seem at all open to accepting the input from people with experience of this that this is an opportunity for you to show support for the children which you and the host are choosing not to take.

You've made up your mind and washed your hands of any responsibility clearly so I'm not sure why you came on this thread.

Saying that you love the children means nothing if you have decided to leave this as their christmas day for them. Poor mites. Heartbreaking.

To be honest I actually hope you and the host have a really shitty Christmas day.

OP you are ignoring the question of whether you will speak with their father.