To agree with JK Rowling?

[StraightenUpAndFryRight]

mobile.twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1207646162813100033

‘Dress however you please.
Call yourself whatever you like.
Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you.
Live your best life in peace and security.
But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?
#IStandWithMaya #ThisIsNotADrill’

Pleased to see the tweet is still there.

Freedom of expression is paramount. The transgenderology policy makers have been quite canny at equating freedom of expression with 'literal violence' and 'hate speech'. Very canny. But still wrong.

JKR has herself been very intelligent about making her tweet palpably non-violent and non-hateful, to try to show up the fake equivalence. The vicious responders are proving her point very well.

#I stand with Maya
#I stand with JKR

Mark Hamill though - what a wuss.

Wow - 6% of people on here think YABU !!! Who are they and why????

I agree.

I think JK Rowling was brave to stand up and post that tweet, and I'm very glad she did.

As I understand it, the woman was posting "gender critical" messages on her workplace slack that were in reality directed at one particular trans person in the workplace

Your understanding is incorrect.

I agree with JK Rowiling & stand with Maya.

However, such is the atmosphere at the moment - and the lack of free speech in UK universities - I cannot say this under my own name.

All I can do is help fund women who are being treated in this way.

Jaxhog

"The really terrible thing is that we can't discuss it without being accused of being a TERF."

I don't care about being called a "TERF". I treat it with the same contempt as being called a "nigger" or "paki".

As I understand it, the woman was posting "gender critical" messages on her workplace slack that were in reality directed at one particular trans person in the workplace. She was not kept on as a consultant as a result. The judgment found that this was a reasonable decision by the employer.

is a set of lies which misrepresents what happened and was presented to slur Maya Forstater. Posting these kinds of lies is shameful.

I've just found out that this is what my DS (20) has read online. Ffs. As a result he has zero sympathy for Maya. I've asked him to read a proper account and think about the implications for freedom of expression ...

... He has said he would like to know 'the full facts' now. He has long acknowledged that (eg) Twitter and Reddit are cesspits.

I agree with @RiddleyW's comment on the judgment - ie that the judgment was merely that Forstater's views on transgender did not amount to a 'religious or philosophical belief' and so was not a protected characteristic. This determination was done by by way of a preliminary issue hearing - ie just considering this and a couple of other preliminary issues and so not determinative of the case as a whole. If I understand correctly

The thing I don’t understand is, that by virtue of calling people trans or cos shows that they KNOW what a woman is.

Well quite. If you refuse to accept the reality of biological sex as a binary, what exactly are you transitioning to and from?

I agree with JK Rowling too.

I also really think those who are unfamiliar should take a look at the XY human being, Gregor Murray, Maya Forstater was harassed for referring to as a man and remember he lost his position and resigned from his party (because he was about to be thrown out) for his long history of abusive behaviour.

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/862183/dundee-councillor-to-be-hauled-before-watchdog-accused-of-insulting-and-offensive-language-towards-public/

I would hope that jkr is able to 'take' reading the thousands of vitriolic messages about her
She doesn't need to read them, she most likely employs people to do that for her, and even if she doesn't she can ignore them.
I wish people would realise that 'twitter' doesn't have any power, and no one has to kowtow to it. The General election proved that. Same thing with the #me too thing. You can have as many hash tags and likes as you want, but you have to make these things count in real life.

Agree. I have posted on Twitter and am now waiting to get trolled 🤷‍♀️

Agree about twitter. Most people are not on it.

I think Rowling is very brave to stick her neck out and do this knowing the backlash she'd get, not enough people are.

She is pretty left-wing / woke about most things so for someone like her to go against the tide and say something means a lot in this debate.

@TheTrickyWitch
I stand with Maya and JKR.

Freedom is the freedom to say 2 plus 2 equals 4.

But 2 + 2 doesn't equal 4, didn't you know? Maybe you're thinking of the old, wrong maths. 2 + 2 can equal anything

It's a perfect example of the saying "A lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth can get its boots on" WeGoHigher.

mauvaisereputation posted their untrue version early on in the thread and that was immediately accepted by some posters. Mission accomplished but very nasty behaviour.

Oh grow up.

Women talking isn't a threat to anyone

//// this with jingle fucking bells on.

Do you know what is a threat? Twats on Twitter telling women to die in a fire or suck my lady cock for agreeing with a BIOLOGICAL FACT. How's that for safe spaces?

And jog on with the "cis" bullshit.

...., I seem to recall during Maya's hearing something about a super star witness for her ex employer stating that if a white employee decided to identify as a black employee that would be ok. Did I dream this?

ie that the judgment was merely that Forstater's views on transgender did not amount to a 'religious or philosophical belief' and so was not a protected characteristic.

But then why didn't the judge limit their comments to what Forstater said? Why make the comments about intersex conditions and people being assigned a gender at birth?

How can you not agree with something so reasonable?

I agree with JK and glad she spoke out. I think the biggest thing about the judgement is that now many people will be nervous about speaking up. Even men, who agree with protecting the rights of women, are too worried about what happens at work if they support those rights on social media. Silencing has been the winner here and that's the most dangerous outcome.

This posted by mauvaise:

As I understand it, the woman was posting "gender critical" messages on her workplace slack that were in reality directed at one particular trans person in the workplace. She was not kept on as a consultant as a result. The judgment found that this was a reasonable decision by the employer.

"is a set of lies which misrepresents what happened and was presented to slur Maya Forstater. Posting these kinds of lies is shameful".

Indeed, she posted nothing on her workplace 'slack', nothing directed at anyone specific, nothing directed at anyone in the workplace, not the reason why her contract wasn't renewed, and not the reason why the judge didn't find in her favour.

You really have to wonder about two things here.

A) The supreme confidence that no one will actually read anything other than your comment. You may hope some people won't, but as soon as one person does, you're exposed.

And

B) why you have to lie?

I stand with Maya.

I stand with JKR.

XY = it's a guy.

6% of people on here think YABU !!! Who are they and why????

I have voted YABU and I'm happy to explain why. For me, it isn't about whether Maya's views on biological sex are factually correct or incorrect. It's about the extent to which an employer is allowed to act when an employee behaves in a way that (they feel) is inconsistent with their values.

This is an employment tribunal judgement, rather than a court judgement and I think some people are losing sight of that.

Where should the line be drawn? If someone had a sincerely-held view that was considered homophobic and therefore offensive, for example, and then expressed it on social media, should their employer be forced to let it stand and take no action, on the grounds of freedom of speech?

We are not talking about Maya expressing this view privately. We are not talking about Maya's right to hold this view. We should not be focusing on whether the view is correct or incorrect. The only question should be, were the employers entitled to act when Maya was expressing a view that was contrary to their ethics? I think they were.

No one is obliged to express themselves on social media, and people need to consider the consequences of expressing a view that others might find offensive or hurtful. Of course, Maya was entitled to express her opinion, but equally, her employers were entitled to say they didn't want her working for them any more.

I have name-changed because I sense my view won't be popular, but I'm a regular poster on here and I'm not looking to be goady or get into an exchange of insults - I'm just trying to explain why I think JKR is wrong on this occasion.

by 'you' i mean the poster who did