Teacher telling another parent to speak to me

[mrssoap]

Basically my child is very disruptive in class. The school are struggling with his behaviour, this is something we have had meetings about several times. He isn't as bad for me at home, he responds to my discipline which is taking his I pad away, sending him to bed earlier ect. I feel in control at home. At school however Is another story.

Yesterday he swore infront of another child. Child went home told her mum and her mum complained to the teacher (fair enough).

Teacher pulled me aside this morning and told me what happened, I apologised said I would speak to my son at home later. She then said she had told the mum to come and speak to me about it! I think that's wrong to do that.

Opinions please? Aibu to think the teacher shouldn't have advised that?

churchandstate removing everything pleasant from a seven year old child's life for a period of many weeks is punitive.

That is not the same as having boundaries.

You are advocating punishment not boundaries.

All children need boundaries to thrive.

You are not describing boundaries. You are chastising the OP for not imposing Draconian punitive measures which do not work long term.

Parents who rely on punishment as their core strategy have to keep on and on punishing because it doesn't actually work to change behaviour, it just makes the child seek strategies to avoid punishment, it doesn't address the problem.

Something is causing the child to behave this way and it's almost certainly because the child is struggling and overwhelmed in the school environment, not because they are not subjected to extended periods of austerity as punishment.

@mbosnz the penalties are clearly not working if he thinks does not matter if I misbehave I can have my screen time tomorrow. He should be thinking I will not be getting screen time till I proof I have earned that privalage and can behave. He needs to be sactioned and punished for long enough that it actually has an effect on him and he sees behaving at school and home a preferable outcome to the one he is currently in

She has been removing ipad privileges for his bad behaviour at school, as a reinforcing consequence at home.

Open ended consequences such as 'no ipad at all for the foreseeable future until your behaviour improves' don't work . They are completely demotivating. For one thing, that's completely non-specific - until your behaviour improves? How is a seven year old supposed to figure out from that what he has to do? It's completely overwhelming, and from his point of view, unachievable.

On the other hand ' if your teacher tells me that you did not destroy anyone elses work today, I'm going to allow you ten minutes on the ipad' - he knows what he has to do. He's motivated to do it. If it is at all within his abilities to do it, he's likely to do it. If he doesn't, then I'd be seriously looking at whether it is not possible for him to behave in the desired manner, and why.

Yes, I know that for those of us whose children find it easy to conform and comply, this seems a pretty bloody low bar. But it's a start. And can be built on.

This mother is not doing nothing to address her son's behaviour. She is engaged with, and supporting the school. She is prepared to listen to other ideas, and open to trying them. This little boy isn't an easy fix, from the sounds of it. Certainly not if the school is using a 1:1 support for him - they don't do that lightly.

churchandstate you sound absolutely clueless.

Seven year old children don't think that a pleasant or unpleasant environment at home is a reward for what happens at school unless told so in so many words, and even then it's too abstract.

Consequences need to be immediate and obviously connected to the behaviour to make sense to a child.

I just wonder if a rewards based system that focuses on recognising good behaviour and gives an impression of success, rather than a punishment based system that focuses on negative behaviour and reinforces feelings of failure, could be better in the long run?

Interestingly, research has shown that rewards can be just as damaging as punishments, in the long run.

Basically, rather than trying to manipulate a child into behaving as we want them to, it's far more effective to work out why they are behaving badly, and try to help them to regulate their emotions - their behaviour will follow in due course.

All kids want to be loved and safe, at root.

notnowmaybelater

I think we may be misunderstanding each other. Probably my fault. I was specifically talking about privileges like ipad and treats, not “everything”: not reading, not his dinner or having friends over. Just the key privileges that need (usually) to be naturally limited anyway for the child’s benefit, where not limiting them might be contributing to the behaviour.

And putting myself into a child’s shoes

Let me correct that sentence for you -

And putting myself into my own shoes when I was a child, I would struggle to understand the importance of behaving at school if I came home and my perception was that I was being rewarded for that behaviour.

You are simply taking the knowledge of what makes you motivated and applying it to everyone else without any degree of selectivity.

Seven year old children don't think that a pleasant or unpleasant environment at home is a reward for what happens at school unless told so in so many words, and even then it's too abstract.

Abstract?

“You aren’t behaving at school at the moment, are you, Ed? And we’ve talked about it a few times. So, from today, there’s no iPad after school until I see your behaviour improve. (Add specifics).”

That isn’t abstract.

Basically, rather than trying to manipulate a child into behaving as we want them to, it's far more effective to work out why they are behaving badly, and try to help them to regulate their emotions - their behaviour will follow in due course.

This!

Anyway, I am not going to have a protracted argument about this. I think anyone on the other side of the argument to me on this is wrong. And I’m not changing that opinion, so let’s leave that there.

Reward and punishment based systems do not work well to improve behaviour that stems from anxiety. This is true when the anxiety is because of a condition such as ASD or as a result of previous trauma.
I think some posters on here are being extremely unfair to the op who is doing a lot to try and sort out the issue.

But do read this:

www.sleepfoundation.org/articles/adhd-and-sleep

@ SarahNade, I agree with OP, sending a child to bed early because of poor behaviour might have some impact if he was an only child, but it is not only impossible with younger siblings, but your likely to end up with disruption past 9.00pm. The old adage you can lead a horse to water, lends itself to you can send a child to bed, but dont expect them to sleep. If Children show poor behaviour at school, the school should be able to deal with it, that is part of their job. If they are not allowed to discipline the child in a way that would create a change of behaviour, something needs to change.

I think the possibility that the little lad has ADHD or another condition has been mentioned by lots of posters. It is why so many of us have persistently said that punitive measures won't work and the reasons why he might have behavioural difficulties needs to be investigated. ADHD is sometimes related to sleep disorders, although I think we've pretty much established on this thread that the child is getting the recommended quantity of sleep (10.5 hours) and the OP has said she will try an earlier bedtime on the days that is possible.

Agreed, churchandstate. It seems to me the more permissive parents are, the more badly behaved children are. I mean, a 7 year old is basically just a grade 2/3 child. The OP seems to not have ever stopped to think that 9pm is utterly ridiculous, even for a first year high school student, let alone a 7 year old small child. In fact, they seem shocked at the idea it is wrong, and saying it wouldn't work for him? Listen, as a parent, you tell a child what works, end of story. If it doesn't work for him, tough. He will learn to make it work for him, if you give him no alternative. The older children shouldn't have to suffer, that's true. But hobby activities may need to be axed for the time being (or get them to return in a taxi). Fact is, this young child is suffering, just because his elder siblings have hobbies. It's not right, he should be prioritised, especially as he is doing badly academically, and is disrupting the class. It means his needs should take priority over the elder children, even if just temporarily. And it's not like it's 'half an hour difference', it is 90 mins difference. 60 mins, at the least. I don't buy that all children are 'different' in so far as what they need. All children need the same thing. Decent bed time hours as well as discipline.

I also don't understand how one can be meeting with the child's school every single week (which in itself indicates the situation is very serious) and yet it never occur to one that their child clearly has learning difficulties or special needs. How can you be going to a school every week because of a child's behaviour, and it never even occur to you that there is a problem? Bad academically and badly behaved, pretty well would raise alarm bells to most people that something is seriously wrong. Yet, they rule out a more sensible bedtime (because other children have hobbies and interests, so other children win out over a child who is obviously struggling). In parenting courses, they address bedtime. And breakfast (hence why I mentioned it, and was shocked that they thought it had nothing to do with it, when it and bedtime are the base things discussed in parenting courses) although he seems to be fine with that. They say it 'won't work' when they've never tried, and show little to no interest in trying. I don't understand how it got this far that they actually think 8:45/9pm is normal. It is not, it is very abnormal, I just don't understand how one can even think it appropriate for a 7 year old small child, how they even ever thought it was ok. They still don't seem to get it, hence I gave up, too.

When I was at primary school my mum made me do my homework as soon as I got home. I was not allowed out to play, until I had done my homework first. My best friend could do her homework if/whenever she wanted, and often sat and waited for me on the verandah while I did my homework, then we could go and play. I went to bed at 7:30 at around 7/8 years old, 6:30/7pm when 5 and 6. I had strict boundaries (mum NEVER let me get out of doing my homework first, not even once!) and did very well. My best friend hated school, had no real boundaries, and left school at 15.

Strict boundaries and rules enforced really make all the difference. But, if one is not willing to even try, automatically writing off something with 'that won't work, he/she won't sleep at that time', then you clearly are not motivated enough to help your child and they don't have much hope.

I could say much more on discipline, lets just say that most of Mumsnet disagree with me on the issue of 'discipline' and decry it violence. The more permissive and more 'time out, take away ipads, tv, toys etc and ban all physical discipline' is clearly not working and is a mistake. Never has there ever been this level of disrespect, rudeness, misbehaving etc from children, and unlike in the days gone by, teachers can't actually do anything to discipline children. It's a 'social experiment' that has failed and I'll leave it at that.

If Children show poor behaviour at school, the school should be able to deal with it, that is part of their job.

As a parent, the success or failure of a child’s education is part of your job. You delegate operational responsibility for it to a school. It’s still your problem at the end of the day.

I find that a lot of the parenting problems are due to the kids ruling the roost, and the parents not enforcing strict rules from the start.

That's not at all helpful for the OP.

OP, ignore the pile on from people who don't know what it is like to be a lone parent, let alone a lone parent to a children with SEND. Everybody is an expert until they have to deal with it themselves and you are doing the best you can and are engaging with the school. You can't do much more than that.

Ignore churchandstate, she hasn't got a clue what she's talking about and is being uncessarily unpleasant.

If this child was in my dds class I would be moving her school. I worked with children that had sen and very extreme behaviours. Firm boundaries and instant reactions to behaviour work. The school was outstanding!!!!! I would take everything and make him earn it back . It will only get worse as he gets older and bigger. He is disrupting others education and this is purely not on. Passive parenting is why we have all these problems with children. Snowflake generation.

My youngest had a 7.30 bedtime just like his brothers. He never sleeps before 10.30/11pm though. No matter what I've done. (Unless he's ill)

He was diagnosed with ADHD at 8. There are different types of ADHD so if you think your son isn't typically hyperactive he could have the inattentive type (as my son does)

I really think talking to the senco and looking at getting him referred for assessments should be your next step.

How did the school run go? Did the mum approach you? I'd certainly never talk to another mum about their child's behaviour, I'd be a bit bemused if a teacher told me to go and talk to a parent.

@chillykiwi thank you, I am not taking any notice of the nasty comments, just taking on board the advice and support.

Poor behaviour should be dealt with in school, yes, but these days it can't be dealt with effectively. Teachers can't do a darn thing, and the kids don't they know it! They know all their 'rights' at a young age, no one can do anything to them and they know it. Schools and parents have been stripped of the ability to actually discipline. Schools can't do anything these days.

Furthermore, schools are having more and more and more responsibility on them as parents expect more and more of teachers and schools. Yet the teachers and schools have their powers eroded every year it seems. It's a lost cause. There is only so much a school can do. If a child has no boundaries or structure, goes to bed at stupid o'clock, isn't forced to do their homework when they get home, well it's a no brainer that the child will do poorly academically and behaviourally. Teachers can only do so much. Most of it is up to the parent to make sure DC are best equipped to face each day. Incidentally, teaching is the job that suffers the most burnout and highest turn-over rates, even higher than nursing and paramedics, and veterinarians. It's not hard to see why so may teachers quit within 3 years of teaching. More and more and more is expected of them by parents and society. It's a heart-breaking job, the way society is today.

I expect that the parent approached the teacher demanding information about your son. He may have asked questions about your parenting, or told the teacher to tell you something specific, and she's said something like 'I'm sorry but that's not something I can discuss with you, you'd have to discuss that with mrssoap.'

Don't be too hard on her. It is vanishingly rare to get 1:1 support without an EHCP so your son must be incredibly disruptive and hard to manage if he has that. I'm sure the teacher is trying and doing everything that she possibly can.

It's her job to care for every child in her class but I'm sure you can imagine how frustrating it must be to deal with that level of disruption.

You don't need to talk to school about SEND. You can visit the GP and get the ball rolling.

He may have additional needs or he may not, but the teacher and other children have my sympathy.

Have you considered volunteering at the school, to see how he behaves in the classroom?

Saying he behaves at home in meaningless. He behaves because you don't ask him to do things that he really doesn't want to do, whereas the teacher is asking him to listen, work, liaise with others, stop playing or whatever his flash points are.

Withholding the iPad or giving him an earlier punishment is not working at all so I see no point in continuing with that. As a strategy to encourage positive behaviour, it has failed.

Be prepared to be told you are 'not helpful' and 'nasty', @tictac86 . Not accepting the truth and being in denial is in these days. Heaven forbid anyone tell it like it is. And so it goes on.

It’s interesting how “advice and support” equals “what the OP already agrees with”. I am not being unpleasant. I am giving my view on what is going to work. To whose benefit? The OP’s.

Your current approach isn’t working, OP.

I do agree that firm boundaries and rules are not just helpful but really reassuring for a child. I don't mean being shoutd at, I mean setting clear limits ('hitting is never okay, we don't swear in school', etc) and being very firm about them. Probably a set bedtime is good too but I often fail at that particular hurdle.

Routine can also be really reassuring for a child - read 'Simplicity parenting' for good advice on this.