To think it’s socially acceptable in Britain to shout at children?

[backdoormadness]

Since I’ve noticed how disgusting some parents talk/shout/disrespect their children I see it everywhere.

-the neighbours who for six months of the year I can hear them yelling at their kids in the garden (their garden is about 10x15m). Most ironically the dad yelling at them as they were playing too loudly (it wasn’t the kids disturbing my peace).

-when I said excuse me to a lady in a shop who turned around to her child “get out of the way” (it was her trolley in the way). I’m sure if it was he Oh she would have said “babe, you’re in the way”.

• the toddler who was happily dillidalling walking in an empty car park as she was watching a huge flock of birds in the sky “I’ve had enough of you, get in the car NOW, I TOLD YOU TO MOVE”. Just imagine if it was her OH talking to her like that, everyone else in my party would have flinched but as it was to a child it’s somewhat acceptable?

These last two have been in the last week.

I wish it was more acceptable to challenge this kind of ‘parenting’, or at least for it not to be seen as normal.

I think the 'British' thing is just to tut at others and judge. You're out there judging shouters and 30 min ago some delight of a woman just stood hands on hips and said "three times you've asked him not to touch things, you need to give him an earful". This was a large shop we walked round, there were lots of decorations, I thought he was actually quite restrained he's only 3. But I am sure this being mn there'll be more comments siding with the misery I encountered. The desire to be judgy and superior is very British.

I don't think its socially acceptable, some parents do it but I find its usually that it accompanies a myriad of other issues with their parenting or situation.

I don't particularly like shouting but i have found myself shouting "that is enough!" when i have repeated myself over and over, but its rare, and only ever during one of ds epic tantrums, that thank god, don't occur all that often.

However, as a pp said there are definitely different types of shouting. What i do, ie to get their attention and snap them out of whatever it is they're doing, and then insulting and nasty shouting, which imo is absolutely not acceptable whatsoever.

I used to walk DS to his old nursery, and there was one mum who shouted all the way to school, every day at her 2 kids who were about 4 and 5. She was truly vile to them. She would shout things like "for fuck sake hurry up you little shit" and "youre being a right little bastard this morning" and i felt desperately sorry for those kids.

realistically, i couldn't have said anything to her because she would have no doubt started on me, and with a baby with me i wasn't going to take that risk. Nor did i know the childrens names, or i would have brought it up with the school.

I. Eg loads of people on here will disagree with you OP, but I completely agree with you. The idea that a child hearing a swear word is worse than their parents regularly shouting at them is ridiculous. (As in- swearing taking place in normal conversation and not shouted or directed at people).

Shouting at a child is never acceptable unless that child is in danger eg about to run across a road and needs shocking into safety. Otherwise it is modelling poor communication. Especially when "snapping". Yes children can be immensely frustrating but the role of a parent is to deal with that. If you can't manage without regularly losing your temper or snapping then don't have kids.

I was a secondary teacher in very challenging schools and never shouted. It's bloody hard, and you have to have patience but it's achievable and worth it for the positive relationships you develop. I also saw teachers snapping and saw the damage it did.

Look, everyone's going to snap once in a blue moon, but then you apologise and model humility to the child. If this is how someone parents in general it's not good.

Oh do frig off, I bet you are one of those gentle parenting types whose kids will end up naughty and get a good shock in high school.

When you hear some woman screeching at her children all day and night like a fishwife, no it is not acceptable, it's exhausting and it's teaching the children that you can't manage your own anger.
I lived next door to someone like that and did actually tell her to shut the hell up once as the noise he constantly made was unbearable.
The times to shout at your kids are when they make a mad dash for the road or are about to pull a saucepan full of hot food onto them.
If you are shouting at them non stop how do you expect them to grow up to be normal human beings.

I dread to think what your kids will turn into Ghosttoast, delinquents who are out all night at 13!!!

Also amazed at the nasty comments of people on here. You'd be fine if your husband shouted at you all day then? That would be abuse but screaming at your kids non stop isn't. God we've all done it but quite honestly one way to treat you and another way to treat your kids is incredibly hypocritical.
My son didn't need to be screamed at 24/7 because he was well brought up and knew how to behave.
I was absolutely terrorised by my parents and I wouldn't wish that on any child ever.

the toddler who was happily dillidalling walking in an empty car park as she was watching a huge flock of birds in the sky

There is a time and a place to watch birds and it isn't in a bloody car parks!
Do you have any sense of reality?
Are you the parent that speaks ever so softly at their children and then they go to school and are absolute little shits because they have no discipline.
Why are you judging their parenting? Do you know how hard it is too parent and get ignored about 1000 times when you've told them not to do something for their own safety...

How would you get that impression? Because I think gentle parenting is a load of crap?

So what do people do when their kids persistently don't do as requested?

Don't smack (obviously)
Don't shout
Don't emotionally manipulate

Is it a question of targeted threats of punishment and rewards that people that don't do the above are using?

To be honest I find that can be problematic as well as I end up using food as a reward.

Personally I would be worried if I spent all my time angry with my children. But if they are really badly behaved and I get annoyed I think that's ok.

I love them more than anyone else does but they need to understand that poor behaviour isn't going to get a good reaction and that if you treat other people badly they are likely to get angry and upset with you.

Oh and I very very rarely judge anybody else's behaviour unless I witness something pretty odd. And that doesn't include a tired looking mum telling their child off.

I dread to think what your kids will turn into Ghosttoast, delinquents who are out all night at 13!!!

You're so bloody rude!

You'd be fine if your husband shouted at you all day then? That would be abuse but screaming at your kids non stop isn't

But there’s a huge gap between shouting all the time (which I don’t think anyone would think it ok), and raising your voice. I do sometimes raise my voice to DH and he to me - we’re human and lose patience - it’s not by any means abusive and our relationship is solid.

I also raise my voice to my children, usually when there’s other stuff going on or when my patience has just run out. We have a good relationship, any rifts are healed quickly and they generally behave very well.

I don’t think citing shooting 25/7 as the opposite to “gentle parenting” is helpful. Any parenting style taken to extreme is problematic.

Surely no one believes you shouldn't ever shout at kids even if they're about to get hurt .

And actually if you snap once in a blue moon, I'm not sure that's that bad, kids do need to learn that they can't keep pushing and pushing and everyone to react in a saintly manner.

I've shouted and apologised on occassion for doing so but not all the time.

I shouted in the car when dc thought it funny to undo their car seat despite being old enough to understand why not too. Freaked me out on the motorway.

I've shouted after the 10th time of put your shoes on when dc couldn't be bothered and i was too poorly to bend and do it.

I've raised my voice to full name my dc when they've been misbehaving, the full name gets their attention.

The only time i felt awful shouting was when dc hurt me mid panic attack. The other times i felt frustrated and guilty.

I try and ensure it’s the behaviour I’m criticising, not the child. One of mine decided to empty my handbag and throw tampons across the room to his friend when I was in a PTA meeting. I took him outside into the hall and absolutely bollocked him (he was 8) and then sat back down and felt shit, close to tears. One of the other mums said she had thought I’d handled it really well because she had heard me saying how disappointed I felt, and how I knew he was capable of much better choices. It was such a relief to hear what I thought was my shitty parenting, being validated. I’d got into the rut of thinking “if I had been a better mother then he wouldn’t be such a pest sometimes” when actually, he really WAS being a pest, and it’s ok to pull him up and tell him how it affected me and how he could do better.

I try and remember we are all just doing our best and mostly winging it anyway.

I’ve been fighting a temper I thought I long since had handle on since having my twins and they’re only just 2yo - DD is extremely cheeky and amazing but sometimes her sense of humour, such as pouring her breakfast all over me as she did 15 minutes ago and then complaining that she is hungry now, makes me internally scream, but I wouldn’t shout in the way you have described @backdoormadness

I think a lot of posters have become defensive, because I can’t think of any parent I’ve met that hasn’t lost their self control sometimes and snapped, which can come across as ‘shouting’ by what I understand, as in a raised voice/harsh tone but usually not drawn out in a tirade, just a loud statement of what needs to be done and I see no issue with this, my Grandparents did the same and worse when I was a child.

But I think the shouting you’re referring to (and correct me if I’m wrong) usually includes some real contempt for the child and it makes me sad too. There’s a difference to, let’s say, my neighbours shouting at their son at the top of their lungs when the boy is about to cycle out of the cul de sac onto the main road (mostly shouting so he hears them, he’s young and knows not to go that far but he’s at an age where he pushes his luck a lot!) - and a parent that will corner and verbally bully a small child.

But it’s all shades of grey, you only know what you glean based on the small window you get into another’s life, but equally, it doesn’t have to sit well with those who witness it.

This week I had to lift my DS who has speech delay and carry him superman style out of the toddler play group whilst my Mum sat in to keep an eye on my DD. He was having an almighty meltdown and pushed another toddler over - he is struggling with socialising - when I saw it I used my ‘mum voice’ to stop him in his tracks and then he got upset so I had to carry him away to a quiet place. In doing so I could comfort him whilst trying to get through to him (age appropriately) why it was wrong that he’d lashed out at another child.

I’m sure no end of people would have caught a glimpse of various parts of this small event as the play group is in a busy leisure centre, but none would have seen the entirety. Depending on which bit they saw they might judge me differently, depending on their own life experience they might see aggression where there is none, so with others I generally lean towards trying not to judge.

Problem is you're damned either way. My kids are all dawdly dreamers and despite 100s of reminders often forget to move out of the way for oncoming passers-by. I often get tuts and annoyed comments so I've got hypersensitive about it. But then the other day I sharply shifted my 6yo out of the way of somebody on the way to school and hissed 'move will you' to the other two (I was tired and stressed) and got an earful for being an unfit mother to my kids!

More generally, I am really not particularly shouty, but when I've asked a child nicely to do something six times in a row to no avail and we need to be at school in 15 minutes, then im not a saint, I may well raise my voice. I don't tend to have the same issue with DH refusing to put his shoes on or suchlike so the comparison doesn't really stand!!!

I'd go so far as to say that never shouting at your kids is as bad as always shouting at them. Adults are human and it is good for kids to know that their parents have their limits just like everyone else. And yes, someone who never ever loses their cool is likely to vent their negative feelings in more damaging ways. There's a woman I used to see in the park who never seemed to shout, but the cold venom in her voice when she told her kids off gave me the creeps. It was hateful. Kids aren't stupid, they know if a parent loves them, regardless of shoutiness or otherwise.

Well there is your answer OP. A lot of excuses and justifications seems to be the theme. I try not to shout at my kids. Don't always succeed. Nobody likes to be shouted at really do they.

Well yes, no shit Sherlock. Nobody's saying shouting at your kids constantly is a great idea. We all lose our shit occasionally even if we try not to, though. And that's not the end of the world. OP called parents who shout (so that's be pretty much all of them) disgusting, no wonder people got defensive!

I shout at them sometimes. If they do not do what they are told. As PP have said - adults don’t tend to do that and if they do, I’m not responsible for them. If the adults break something in a shop then they pay for it, not my problem.

I would avoid taking kids to shops with breakables but sometimes it is the most efficient way to get stuff done.

Problem is that no-one now knows how to discipline effectively.

I’ve never smacked DD and rarely raise my voice but there are times when she will speak to me in a very rude and entitled way and will just disobey or carry on what she is doing as she has never feared me.

When DH and I were children nearly everyone got smacked at least occasionally. It certainly focussed our minds on our behaviour at the time, and there were clear lines that we didn’t cross.

I don’t and will not smack DD, because it is. not socially acceptable as it was 25 years ago, but I do worry that children now do not have the same boundaries and there is sweet-FA that parents can do about it.

And “setting the right example” doesn’t work as of my friends it’s the gentlest parents who have the most obnoxious, aggressive and entitled kids.

I've taught early years for almost 15 years and I can figure out the range of parenting styles within a couple of days with each new class.
The biggest problem by a country mile is low expectations from parents in terms of communication. A large proportion of young children theses days are not capable of listening effectively (SEN excepted). There is no eye contact when you speak to them, because they've never been expected to listen and respond appropriately when they are spoken to.
Many cannot follow basic instructions because they have such low expectations put on them at home. Mummy does EVERYTHING for them.
By Christmas every single child in my class knows my expectation to look at my face when I'm speaking to them. Their ability to respond to and carry out instructions sky rockets. Spoken words are such a small part of communication and we are in danger of raising a generation of ignorant young people with poor communication skills if this isn't addressed at home as well as at school.

@SquareAsABlock @Recrim

That was not a comment praising the middle classes! Obviously my tone was unclear.

I've noticed so much more shouting at children in the 15 years I've spent on council estates and surrounding areas than in the 15 years I've spent in leafy middle class areas.

I don't think the parenting of one class is generally likely to be better or worse than the parenting of any other class. But privacy and reserve are particularly characteristic of the middle classes. So I concluded that they probably simply save the yelling till they get home.