Using fork in right hand, knife in left..

[AG29]

I am aware it’s meant to be the other way round but I feel most comfortable with my fork in right hand and knife in left. The opposite feels uncomfortable and I was never taught any different growing up. It’s never caused me too many problems. I generally have good table manners.

My OH’s mum is a bit of a nightmare in general. If we eat there (not often thankfully but Christmas next week). She has told me to swap hands before but I don’t feel comfortable that way. To the point I avoid eating there as much as possible. OH reminds me to eat with fork in left if we are going over there too and I’m sick of being spoke to like a child.

Aibu to think they should just leave it be? Does it really matter. It’s not like I’m eating with my bloody hands!

The irony is that the actual upper classes couldn’t give a stuff about this etiquette nonsense - they are already secure in their status and don’t need to signal it to everyone else!

That's not my experience at all. They would never openly say it. That doesn't mean they haven't noticed and aren't drawing their own conclusions.

At a personal level, no it doesn't matter at all and everyone should do what they're comfortable with.

At a social level, there is an established convention and like it or not, certain people notice and judge if you aren't following these conventions. And yes, you can dismiss those people as snobbish dickwads, but they're often people who hold a lot of power.

So I'll be teaching my children what's conventionally considered good table manners, because I wouldn't want to them to find themselves in a formal dining situation and have their behaviour judged by others.

Mine is a pragmatic rather than ideological approach.

As a New Zealander who has only lived in the UK for a brief period of time as a child, is class (and their associated mannerisms) really such a big issue in the UK? Or is this just one of those Mumsnet things?

Happy to be amusing Evil.....

The reality is some people will judge you for poor table manners and whilst you can assume most people won't, the truth is you won't know who does/doesn't because they wouldn't be so impolite as to say so.

As an adult you can decide that you either care about this or you don't.

That's perfectly fine and like many pp's it's a choice to take the attitude that people who judge are "twats" (as I believe at least one pp suggested) and as such you don't value their opinion anyway, so stuff them and eat how you want.

However, I choose to teach my children good table manners so they have that choice when they are older, rather than simply being ignorant about the "correct" way to hold/use cutlery.

Well, I will continue to hold my knife and fork in the only configuration that allows me to eat comfortably. If this results in me being passed over for jobs and shunned by polite society, that’s a risk I’m willing to take.

This absolutely is anti-left handed prejudice, by the way - don’t try and convince me otherwise, Hyacinth Buckets. If it was really based on ‘manners’, you would be able to give me an actual reason why it is considered rude.

The irony is that the actual upper classes couldn’t give a stuff about this etiquette nonsense - they are already secure in their status and don’t need to signal it to everyone else!

That's not my experience at all. They would never openly say it. That doesn't mean they haven't noticed and aren't drawing their own conclusions.

It might not be your experience, but as a person with upper class relatives I can honestly say no, they wouldn't care which way round people hold their knife and fork. If someone was to throw food or lick the plate then, yes, that would be comment-worthy. Otherwise, upper class people are very secure in both their position in society and sense of self-worth, they do not need to concern themselves with the petty 'rules' of etiquette the lower middle classes impose on themselves and others.

And I say this as someone who once ate an Indian takeaway with a marquis out of the foil trays and using only forks. We did hold them in our left hands though.

Well, I will continue to hold my knife and fork in the only configuration that allows me to eat comfortably. If this results in me being passed over for jobs and shunned by polite society, that’s a risk I’m willing to take.

I think this is a perfectly reasonable position btw.

If it was really based on ‘manners’, you would be able to give me an actual reason why it is considered rude.

Convention, I suppose, rather than manners. But I can see why its advantageous at a general level that everyone uses cutlery in the same way. Makes table setting a lot simpler for starters. Also there's probably less bumping of elbows going on if the arm holding a knife isn't right beside another arm holding a knife in a cramped space.

It's all very small stuff like I say. It's how it's viewed and how that impacts you.

Otherwise, upper class people are very secure in both their position in society and sense of self-worth, they do not need to concern themselves with the petty 'rules' of etiquette the lower middle classes impose on themselves and others.

I know and socialise with many people in this bracket. I UTTERLY disagree with this. In my experience they are totally attuned to the many small markers that they feel distinguish them from other social classes.

Like I say, they would never vocalise this.

And I say this as someone who once ate an Indian takeaway with a marquis out of the foil trays and using only forks. We did hold them in our left hands though.

I'm sure that's true and I can relate similar stories myself. However I'd bet my last dollar that he knows how to use a knife and fork correctly in a formal setting.

I know and socialise with many people in this bracket. I UTTERLY disagree with this. In my experience they are totally attuned to the many small markers that they feel distinguish them from other social classes.

Yes, they are, I'm well aware of it, I grew up with it. But that's very different to fretting about the hand with which someone uses their knife.

I'm sure that's true and I can relate similar stories myself. However I'd bet my last dollar that he knows how to use a knife and fork correctly in a formal setting.

We both do, and we'd both say that using a knife and fork correctly is not dependent on which hand you hold them in. Seriously, it's a complete non-issue. You mentioned the small class markers - considering this to be important is one of them. If someone was using their knife and fork 'incorrectly' it would be assumed they were either left-handed or had some reason why they couldn't do it the other way around.

Both of my sons are left handed so I always set their places the other way round. Can't say it's held them back in any way, but then we don't associate with snobby twats.

But that's very different to fretting about the hand with which someone uses their knife.

I disagree, I think it’s exactly the kind of marker I’m talking about.

I agree there is a left handed prejudice but the reason for that is simply because most people right handed so as "conventional" current table etiquette was formed it did so with a right handed bias.

As for why it's considered rude, well that's simple a process of what the prevailing social norms are. You could equally ask why it's considered rude to not use the word please or why is it traditional to shake someone's hand.

It's why some gestures/actions are perfectly acceptable in some cultures and seen to be the height of rudeness in others.

It's also true these norms change over time. Go back 40 years and smoking at the dining table was perfectly acceptable, whilst not wearing a hat for church on a Sunday morning would be unthinkable,

It may well be that in the future as a society the rules around table etiquette get more relaxed - arguably they already have done certainly wrt informal/family dining and like any aspect of behaviour you make a choice about which social norms you choose to participate in and which you don't and whether to care about what other people's reactions/opinions to that will be.

I'd also echo the notion that the upper classes don't care/notice/trivialise the self with etiquette is simply not true. In my experience they are utterly immersed in it to the point it's not dissimilar to a masons secret handshake in marking out other people of a similar background.

DeRigueurMortis They can judge away. I know which fork is for which course, how to use a dessert spoon properly, which glass is for red/white/water etc. If the only aspect of my table manners that can be marked down is the fact that my right hand refuses to operate a knife properly, I really very much do not care.

My five year old has very good table manners, by the way (including holding her knife and fork the right way round unlike her mother).

That's fine Evil.

It's absolutely your choice to make.

I'm not saying it's wrong if you don't care if people judge, rather that some people will judge and as an adult it's up to you to decide what your response is.

As a New Zealander who has only lived in the UK for a brief period of time as a child, is class (and their associated mannerisms) really such a big issue in the UK? Or is this just one of those Mumsnet things?

As a New Zealander currently living here, yes it is very much a live issue. My teenaged DD's have been gobsmacked by just how conscious of class their peers are - particularly if they think that someone is 'getting above themselves', or 'being too posh'. . .

Bloody hell. This thread gets worse. I'm a leftie and I don't bump elbows with anyone else at the table. Nor do I write any differently than the majority of right handed people other than my pen or pencil is in my left hand. If some of the attitudes expressed on this thread are around what hand a person holds their knife or fork in then God help us when it comes to more important matters of prejudice.

This thread is a fascinating study in the extent to which social conventions are deeply embedded and followed with little questioning of why they came about or whether society has changed/moved on.

Also an infuriating unwillingness by a handful of people to accept that using a knife in a different hand does not equate being a messy eater, spraying food everywhere and talking with mouth open.

...rather that some people will judge
I think those people are starting to die off now. It's generally recognised now that left handed people don't need to be 'trained' to use their hands in a way that doesn't feel comfortable or natural to them.

Honestly, I’m big on table manners, but I don’t think this would even register with me. As long as you aren’t overfilling your mouth, talking with your mouth full, or eating with it open, what does it matter?

This thread is a fascinating study in the extent to which social conventions are deeply embedded and followed with little questioning of why they came about or whether society has changed/moved on.

I don't think anyone on here is 'not questioning' how they came about or how relevant they are in functional terms.

They are pointing out that certain sections of society still hold them up as the gold standard in etiquette terms. Whether you care about their view and how it impacts you is entirely down to you.

They are pointing out that certain sections of society still hold them up as the gold standard in etiquette terms. Whether you care about their view and how it impacts you is entirely down to you.

I do really think that sort of old fashioned way of thinking is dying out though.

I do really think that sort of old fashioned way of thinking is dying out though.

Overall, yes probably.

However in certain social scenes and professions, it's very much still with us.

Worra yes I think that's a fair point.

By way of example I recall my DM throwing dinner parties back in the day with a very formally set table and that was the norm.

These days when she has friends for dinner instead of a 3 course dinner with copious amounts of cutlery and glassware, serving plates and individually plated food you see some pre-dinner snacks and a tagine or some other communal dish on the table for everyone to help themselves.

Certainly apart from Christmas Day I rarely use the "posh" dinner service/glasses and silverware I inherited when we have friends around, which in a way is a shame as the table looks very beautiful when it's set up that way (and maybe I ought to be a bit less lazy and do it more often).

However, there are still occasions (professional dinners mainly in my case) where that tradition of formal dining is still very prevalent and I've seen little evidence that it's dying out.

However in certain social scenes and professions, it's very much still with us.

But several of us on this thread have pointed out that we have moved in those social scenes and professions that supposedly have this way of old fashioned thinking whilst using our knives in our left hands....

There are certainly circles where people are judged by very old fashioned criteria. If those circles are ones that might be useful to you it’s a good idea to know the ridiculous rules of the particular “club”. Then you can decide whether or not you want to keep said rules.