To think many working/middle class are now ‘poor’?

[WorldsOnFire]

Inspired by the ‘People are terrible Scrooge’s who clearly don’t want to help the poor’ explosion on MN recently I read an article about a single mother on UC ‘left in tears’ as she ‘only’ had £60 left for Christmas. (Many similar threads recently about tight Christmas budgets so a lot of people in similar boats).

What shocked me was the hundreds of comments from FT working professionals - nurses, teachers, tradesmen, IT professionals, social workers... the list goes on. All jobs earning £20K+ and many with two adults in one home, all saying they were in the same (some even worse) situations. They receive no help as they earn too much but the cost of living is so high they can’t afford to heat their homes and pay their mortgages/childcare 😦. I find this shocking!

It sounds like those who don’t work/work PT (for whatever reason- not here to debate right/wrong of UC 🙄) are topped up by UC whilst those working FT aren’t and actually there’s not much difference at the end of the month.

AIBU to think that the whole country maybe aren’t terrible Scrooge’s and in reality the working/lower middle class who used to give to ‘the poor’ are now becoming The Poor and therefore are less compassionate/willing to help?

I think expectations are higher so people often feel comparatively 'poor' despite having a roof over their heads, food on the table, TV, broadband etc.

We are force-fed aspirational nonsense from the media (particularly this time of year) so everyone feels like everyone else has it 'better' than them whilst, by historical standards, they're not actually doing too bad.

I'm guilty of it too, I have a reasonable (older) car which does the job but often think I'd like a Range Rover when, 20 years ago, the thought wouldn't have entered my head.

This might lead to a lack of compassion as people, as you suggest, feel they are poorer than their actual situation implies. I think as well that people often feel they are 'no better off' (which may or not be the case) than those who don't seem to work as hard (or at all!)

London pricing but representative, two people with a baby

Two bed flat in Zone 3 - £1275/month

Council tax - £110/month

Electricity & Gas - £80/month

Travel Card - £160/month

Phone & Internet - £30/month

So £1600/month before you have any other expenses which reasonably are around £400/month

Childcare is so expensive it's effectively my partners entire £28K salary once you take commuting into account so it's not worth working.

On what is a good salary of £40K with a 7.5% pension contribution you're looking at around £2,500 month take home so around £500/month to save to cover holidays, emergencies, one of child expenses and periods of unemployment.

So yes, I could see how people on £25-35K could feel pretty poor.

FFS, another benefits bashing thread. You're on Cloud Cuckooland if you think UC is a bed of roses or makes people who don't work or work PT better off. Bull-fucking-shit.

I think when people can't afford to heat their house there is a problem. If you can't feed your family. There is a problem.

Its so hard to answer though because a lot comes down to attitudes towards money, work and comparing to others.

I have anecdotal stories from my experience of sitting in a meeting with a person claiming they need to be housed by the council and yet they had chosen to buy a car that cost them over £400 a month.

We went away with people at the weekend who I imagine are in the top 0.1% of wealth (three holidays a year, private schools, private members clubs for the weekend, a house in the most expensive square mile of London) and I was told that even though their income was 'good' it was still tight to live on. Well that is the case if you are comparing yourself to people who have private incomes that generate money just because of the money but not if you compare yourself to the general poplulation).

Then there is myself. I have to say that I must be in the top 10% of most wealthy in terms of the location that I live, access to schools and also that I have a house with a mortgage. I have always worked and yet at the end of the month there is no extra. But I also don't have to worry which I think makes me rich.

Standard of living and wages aren't great, but I think it's important people renember that those with the better jobs etc at least don't have to worry about the government pulling their income out from under them or being moved on by landlords etc. Most of them will be home owners or on the way to. I know there are acceptions of course. I'm in that so called squeezed middle category myself but live in a deprived area so maybe that is why I don't feel hard done by. I see real struggle on a daily basis unfortunately. It is worrying that high earning professionals are struggling though, if they are then what chance do the rest of us have.

@PBo83

I agree with all of that and would definitely say that apples to slightly higher earners. Households earning £50k-£100k, who lose 35% to deductions and are unlucky enough to be tied to an expensive area/childcare. I can see the ‘I’d rather have a land rover’ being a real issue.

But for households earning £20k-£40k ish- worrying about being able to heat their home and buy food seems insane. These people shouldn’t be ‘poor’.

@FruitcakeOfHate

NOT a benefit bashing thread! Very clear about that in my OP!
People on UC are poor and don’t have it easy- my point is that there seem to be many FT working professionals in exactly the same boat- whereas In past generations you would expect to see a difference!

It's all relative. I live comfortably as a single parent with one income of £20k including child maintenance. Due to my low outgoings.

People earning £40k are not "working poor" though. Doesn't matter how much your outgoings are, if you say you're poor on a £40k salary you're an idiot.

@Waxon

Do you not think £40k really depends on what area you’re tied to. For example a family earning £40k with 2/3 kids and a job tied to central London- very easily could struggle.

@WorldsOnFire

Thankyou. As it happens we fall pretty much in the middle of the two brackets you mentioned but we do happen to live in the South East so that instantly makes things a bit pricier.

We're not poor, we don't struggle to pay rent, bills or put food on the table but there isn't much left over at all (one foreign holiday in ten years, older cars). Occasionally we'll both grumble about not having things other people do (I'm sure we can all be guilty of this) but, personally, I'm generally happy with a fairly simple life.

Like I say, I think the biggest problem (asides from genuine, abject [not relative...massively different]) is expectations from life. People were generally happy with 'their lot' in generations gone by when 'your lot' was expected to be far more modest.

• [not relative...massively different] poverty)

Kinda missed an important word there!

There is quite a lot about 'the working poor' - i think the fastest growing group of children living in poverty live in homes where parents work FT. so you are right to observe that people on benefits are poor and some people working are also poor.
The debste gets heated as some people forget that paying for housing, heating, food and so on is the point of earning so when they say im poor because after ive paid for everything i need there is no money left its not the same as i cant pay for everything i need.

I think it's all relative though to your housing costs. I've lived in an expensive city and was pretty broke whilst working full time and having very little other outgoings. I now live in a much much cheaper area and things are a lot easier.

I agree there should be more help for low earning workers. Like I think it’s ridiculous that if your on the dole you get free nursery hours from aged 2 but if you work it’s from aged 3...surely it should be the other way round!

YANBU. It's not benefit bashing to point out that people not on benefits can be struggling. With stagnant wages and rising rents and bills, that's the way things have been going. I don't know whether it will make people less compassionate - I think there's already a compassion problem because of the whole Thatcherite culture of individualism, and that won't necessarily go away even though the results of our lack of solidarity are clear to see. The UK is heading for social and economic collapse within the next couple of years and there's no will to prevent it whatsoever.

My bills are £1650 a month before I pay for food, petrol or my kids university maintenance allowance! I'm fortunate stbexh gives me money because I could not even pay the bills on my salary of circa £24k. I know it's lowish but I shouldn't be poor on it.

(Will be better once I sell as I will buy outright)

Do you not think £40k really depends on what area you’re tied to. For example a family earning £40k with 2/3 kids and a job tied to central London- very easily could struggle.

It's a different kind of struggling. Between us, my husband and I bring home a decent amount, but sometimes we are close to the line financially speaking. However, this is very, very different to people who have no safety net at all. My salary apparently means that credit card companies are falling over themselves to loan me money (not a huge salary, so not quite sure why!), although I have paid off a fair amount of debt, which helps. We may occasionally feel broke, but we are never desperate. We never have to skip meals, in order to feed the kids. We never have to choose between food and heating. We never have to try and make £20 somehow stretch to cover the weekly shop. I think there is a lack of understanding about the difference between struggling to make ends meet each month, and literally struggling to survive.

I see what you're getting at. For what it's worth, I think it's a disgrace that people who work full time have to get UC at all to have enough(ish) money to live on. The minimum wage is a joke right now and it looks like it won't be changing for these people anytime soon.

Linked to this, a lot of upper working/lower middle class jobs such as those listed by the OP pay a comparative pittance (when you bear in mind all the education and/or training that nurses, tradespeople and teachers etc have to put in) that doesn't extend to all that much. Things like running a car, eating a varied diet, affording childcare or a few Christmas presents shouldn't be out of reach.

I despair at the growing inequality in our society, and that, whilst our government stands by and makes cuts, the working poor are paying proportionally large amounts of their "wealth" into charity to support those in this country who have next to nothing. Whilst tax breaks are handed out to the super rich and Johnson's first "vote for me" policy thrown out during the leadership campaign was wanting to raise the threshold for higher rate tax to 80k (benefitting solely the top 10% of earners)

Well obviously someone that’s working in any of the jobs you mentioned are getting considerably more money than someone on UC, the difference is their price of living is higher, they may have a mortgage (so can’t get help for rent), they may be living in house bigger than what they need. Some one on UC is likely to be living in a small property (sometimes smaller than what they need), bills will be lower and they may have less outgoings.

I do think it’s wrong that many people are struggling with the price of living wether working or not.

YANBU at all.

Think problem is in the UK, for a number of reasons, maybe mostly high housing costs, even people who have a decent salary don't feel rich or comfortably off and are therefore not particularly happy. They are not necessarily the working poor though.

I read an article about a single mother on UC ‘left in tears’ as she ‘only’ had £60 left for Christmas.

Was this woman who had adult children who didnt live with her and only worked part time, despite being fit and healthy though? She chose to work part time.

That's not quite the same as working fulltime and not having money left

Tax Credits threw a lot of money to those not working to have as many kids as you wanted.Rent and Council Tax would be paid with money,sometimes large sums on top.All thanks to Labour.
Compare to a couple working,only being able to afford one or two children and having to pay for everything.
It’s a situation that could not continue.That is why Universal Credit,benefits restricted to two children,the benefit cap were brought in.
Why bother working when others are heavily subsidised for not working.

It's housing though isn't it in many places that causes the issue, the prices if you got on the ladder in the last few yrs, the rent if you can't, lack of social housing.

We earn ok but are fortunate to have been able to get on the ladder so have a £700 mortgage. I have neighbours who earn at least a 1/3 more but who are a bit younger paying 2k in rent & then I have neighbours a bit older who probably never earned more than 40k total income but are in 1m homes with either a tiny mortgage or no mortgage.

YANBU. I don't think it's a 'benefits bashing' thread. Rather I think the OP is pointing out that the middle classes are getting ever and ever 'squeezed'. Me and DH both work full time on average-ish salaries, but by the time we pay bills, mortgage (and we're in the South East), childcare, food and run two cars (we each need a car for work), there really isn't much left.