To think many working/middle class are now ‘poor’?

[WorldsOnFire]

Inspired by the ‘People are terrible Scrooge’s who clearly don’t want to help the poor’ explosion on MN recently I read an article about a single mother on UC ‘left in tears’ as she ‘only’ had £60 left for Christmas. (Many similar threads recently about tight Christmas budgets so a lot of people in similar boats).

What shocked me was the hundreds of comments from FT working professionals - nurses, teachers, tradesmen, IT professionals, social workers... the list goes on. All jobs earning £20K+ and many with two adults in one home, all saying they were in the same (some even worse) situations. They receive no help as they earn too much but the cost of living is so high they can’t afford to heat their homes and pay their mortgages/childcare 😦. I find this shocking!

It sounds like those who don’t work/work PT (for whatever reason- not here to debate right/wrong of UC 🙄) are topped up by UC whilst those working FT aren’t and actually there’s not much difference at the end of the month.

AIBU to think that the whole country maybe aren’t terrible Scrooge’s and in reality the working/lower middle class who used to give to ‘the poor’ are now becoming The Poor and therefore are less compassionate/willing to help?

I’m really struggling at the moment. My working tax credits have been cut as I have over 16k equity in my property that I can not turn into cash. Once my debts have been paid off I have about 20k not much but something and better than nothing

But this is the ridiculous part if my flat drops in value by 5k (likely) I can not only claim tax credits but also full housing benefit (interest only mortgage) and that would work out to £1350 a month

I don’t want that or need it by my working tax credits made life a bit easier (225 a month) i received them because my wage isn’t high

But I’m not poor though I am struggling. The system is wrong

And professional job/university level education

Expectations are much higher - previous generations of working class/lower middle class people would not have had cars, foreign holidays, a varied diet, meals out every week, new clothes several times a year, central heating etc. Nowadays people think that they are poor if they turn the heating off at night and use a hot water bottle. Obviously there's a big problem with housing costs in some parts of the country, but I think we will all need to scale back our lifestyles for environmental reasons before too long. A lot of people make poor choices with what to spend money on.

Dh and I have a combined income of 36k per year, and own our home (mortgaged). After tax we have about 2500 per month. Which looks like a lot on paper. We live in the Midlands. Out of that 2500 goes the mortgage (300) Bills (400) running two cars (150), food (400 ish), pet insurances (50), a loan payment of 350, and a childcare cost of 900 per month. We're literally at our limit, due to the loan and childcare costs. If we had to pay rent at the going rate (about 700 a month for a 2-3 bed place round here) instead of having been able to secure a mortgage, then we would not be able to manage. Once the childcare costs come down (another 14 months) and the loan is cleared (24 months) we will be in a very different position. But for now we do sometimes feel very poor. Hard to feel sorry for ourselves though, we chose to have kids, and due to my age, didn't feel we could wait another 2 years to ttc.

I don't understand why people have children if they cannot afford them, or more than one. Birth control is almost 100% if you use belt and braces, which I would have if another baby was going to be unaffordable.

I also think a lot of people don't understand what real poverty was like 50 or 60 years ago when people survived on a lot less and had lower expectations.

Both my parents came from very poor backgrounds and their definition of 'poverty' would be very different to today's .

My dad used to steal veggies from farmers fields so they could have food on the table and sometimes kindly farmers told him to help himself.

The cost of living varies according to where you live. Here, the cheapest 1-bed house or flat is around £200K. Where my extended family live in the north you could get a very nice 4-bed, 2 bath, double garage detached for that. here, you'd be looking at £650K+.

In all honesty I think people don't budget too well these days and don't actually appreciate that what they are buying are 'luxuries'- like ready meals, takeaways, loads of activities for kids after school, holidays overseas, new cars quite regularly, trading up to expensive phones @ 1K a time.

I've known plenty of working and middle class people who are poor, was poor myself at one time. Difference between poor and earning and poor on benefits is that people who are working generally become better off with time and those on benefits remain the same, at the moment quite worried about the future I would imagine.

People have mentioned on here that expectations are higher than they used to be.

Yet the elephant in the room is the phrase "housing ladder"

I never EVER heard this phrase growing up Not from my parents friends or their families I did not hear this phrase at all.

when a house was talked about when i was growing up it was as a home not a bloody investment.

Ive only heard the phrase in the last 10 to 15 years coinciding with when they started building rabbit hutch type houses.

Coincidence? i think not.

DLA fraud was 0.5%

Of course this can't account for distorted decision making, i.e reverse engineering all family childbearing, employment, and living arrangements so as to maximise financial gain - which is not only legal, but in fact very sensible.

It is perverse that people should be financially incentivised to have more children and work less. This is what UC and the benefits cap is meant to eliminate.

*Im also £50k in debt for my degree 🙈👍🏻 A requirement of my job that pays £1600 pm 😂 awesome.

I think everything is relative TBH! My friend astounded me at the W/E by telling me they think we are "comfortably off!" We have our own house /car and have enough money to live without worrying about any bills.However we still have some mortgage left and only run 1 car ! One persons perception of being poor is different to anothers I think.Also the cost of living in UK ,especially London and the south of England is very high .Nurses,Teachers and so on have a flat wage around 30k so unless they are both at work or have a second job they will struggle .

@chocolatelover45 I agree and posted before I'd read your post.

My parents were poor. We never had a holiday overseas in all my childhood. I first went abroad aged 25. My parents never travelled abroad in all their lives.

Our holidays were a day out to the coast or to a caravan owned by a relative.

They were professionals, well qualified, but my mum didn't work much as she was a carer for my gran for years. They had a mortgage, and managed pretty well but by the age of 16 I had a Saturday job and bought (and made) my own clothes other than major items needed for school.

If you asked people to accept that kind of thing now, they'd be horrified.

I don’t know about ‘poor’ but I know that you have to be earning a significant amount in London to be really comfortable. It’s what pissed me off in this election when people were talking about a ‘London bubble’, as if we are all out of touch champagne socialists living the high life.

I have two very good friends with good professional jobs who are also single parents.

One is paying close to £2k a month renting a flat in what non-Londoners would probably think a shit area (high crime rate, inner London - but close to her work and her only family) ...and she pays the same again for childcare, so her very good salary doesn’t go far after that.
The other is a headteacher, who has only just got on the property ladder with a shared ownership flat and pays a massive whack for wraparound childcare.

Certainly not living the high life.

Im also £50k in debt for my degree 🙈👍🏻 A requirement of my job that pays £1600 pm 😂 awesome.

Your repayments each month will be very small if your salary is £1600 x 12 months.

Is that net or gross income?

Why's everyone going on about labour bringing in tax credits ?? They'd been going way before Blair came into power. I remember my mum getting them and she worked full time albeit a load wage. Don't worry, we weren't loaded. The house she owned had ice on the inside of the windows and we never had hot running water the entire time we lived there.

The good old days........shame so many people are back to entire families living in one room and queueing at soup.kitchens. Any system that punishes children for being born is wrong.

@LoadOfBaubles I think the London Bubble refers more to a metropolitan attitude, not income. Yes, London rents are high. I know people paying £2K a month for a small flat (rent.) London house prices are extortionate compared to the rest of the UK and people who live in central London accept that- or they move out and commute. It's their choice.

Many people feel that the current standard of living is high ,but surely as we go forward heating /holidays /and takeaway meals should not be seen as luxuries ,just a better standard of living for the poor old proles?This is supposed to be progress !

Why's everyone going on about labour bringing in tax credits ?? They'd been going way before Blair came into power. I remember my mum getting them and she worked full time albeit a load wage. Don't worry, we weren't loaded. The house she owned had ice on the inside of the windows and we never had hot running water the entire time we lived there.

Tax credits came in around 2003.

You must be thinking of income support.

@dottiedodah The salary for a teacher is above £30K. As from next year the basic starting salary is going to be £30k and at present anyone with 6 years experience will be earning high £30s, closer to £40K.

@Jingling

Oh yes, I’ll probably never pay it off. That’s my net salary btw. Just seems crazy to me that a job which generates £1600 a month income cost £50k in student loan.

No one needs a takeaway and for a start they are usually very unhealthy.

Marley is me Tony Blair was elected in 1997 dont forget ,so it was indeed his govt that brought them in (Gordon Browns idea apparently)!

People earning £40k are not "working poor" though. Doesn't matter how much your outgoings are, if you say you're poor on a £40k salary you're an idiot bullshit! Before I start a days work my outgoings are £65 nursery £10.10 travel £25 mortgage ....before I eat, heat my home...for what it’s worth I consider myself lucky but no it’s not easy!

@JinglingHellsBells

I have teacher friends on £23-£25k
I have nurse friends on £22-26k
I have social worker friends on £21-24k

I think this is very representative of what many 20-30 age group earn in these roles.

Just seems crazy to me that a job which generates £1600 a month income cost £50k in student loan.

Well, you chose to do a degree and presumably you researched the salaries for people with your type of degree and the employment you would find with it? You needed perhaps to do a better value outcome if you feel hard done by.

The repayments start when you earn £25k (?)

@WorldsOnFire I know what teachers earn- I was one. My figures are right and your friends must be very young with less than 6 years' experience. If someone starts teaching at 22, by the time they are 30 they should be at the top of the basic scale and then can progress to advanced teacher scales.