To think many working/middle class are now ‘poor’?

[WorldsOnFire]

Inspired by the ‘People are terrible Scrooge’s who clearly don’t want to help the poor’ explosion on MN recently I read an article about a single mother on UC ‘left in tears’ as she ‘only’ had £60 left for Christmas. (Many similar threads recently about tight Christmas budgets so a lot of people in similar boats).

What shocked me was the hundreds of comments from FT working professionals - nurses, teachers, tradesmen, IT professionals, social workers... the list goes on. All jobs earning £20K+ and many with two adults in one home, all saying they were in the same (some even worse) situations. They receive no help as they earn too much but the cost of living is so high they can’t afford to heat their homes and pay their mortgages/childcare 😦. I find this shocking!

It sounds like those who don’t work/work PT (for whatever reason- not here to debate right/wrong of UC 🙄) are topped up by UC whilst those working FT aren’t and actually there’s not much difference at the end of the month.

AIBU to think that the whole country maybe aren’t terrible Scrooge’s and in reality the working/lower middle class who used to give to ‘the poor’ are now becoming The Poor and therefore are less compassionate/willing to help?

The working poor is a very real thing. My DSis works FT, earns about £18k a year, but lives alone, with all the costs associated with that, she has to have a car because of where she lives/works, and she's really skint. She often can't afford to put the heating on, hasn't been able to do any maintenance on her house since she bought it 10 years ago, only has a very limited budget for food, Christmas presents, etc. She's not unusual - loads of people on low wages are poor.

I'm a single mum working part-time. I don't claim any benefits or top-ups. I am entitled to claim but I prefer not to have to deal with the stress of it. We manage fine.

Half the country earns less than 20k. I think if you have two parents earning this amount you should be doing ok, unless you have lots of children in childcare, or you have an expensive mortgage/rent in the southeast, or you have some expensive habits.

I should say too that she never could've afforded to buy even the tiny house she has if our parents hadn't helped.

It's all OK though. Right?

Because all our nurses, social workers, teachers can relax in the fact that they are doing GOOD for society, who gives a shit about paying their mortgage off? They just should be happy in the fact that they are contributing to the greater good.

Dp works full time and I’m a sahm for now as dd is very young and the childcare costs outweighs me working. We cope, we aren’t entitled to many benefits at all. We get child benefit the same as everyone that’s all. Some months we don’t have enough money for food and dps parents help us out. We wouldn’t dream of using a food bank though as other people may need it more. I think a lot of people struggle now, I mean we have nothing extra left after bills and shopping. I saved all year to buy our daughters Xmas presents.
Before I was a home owner and still with my parents working full time I was able to have takeaways, go to the cinema, treat myself and give to charity every month. I have to think twice about buying mascara now!
I’m hopeful once the kids (I’m pregnant) are at school I can maybe get a part time job. I like working and I miss it, but I want to be a mum more!

People are having less children & we have a shrinking tax paying population, but 20 yr olds these days have massive uni debt, need to save a big deposit for an overpriced house due to tending lending conditions, whilst paying overpriced rent & also saving for a pension as state won't exist & probably private healthcare too. Not sure how it's possible, if I was younger I would leave the country.

I despair at the growing inequality in our society,

^

It will only get worse, given the recent election results.

haha fucking laughable that you think benefits come close to any paid job.and that it tops it up.haha
and the articles of those on benefits actually dyinng?
or not getting the UC for 6months and ending in debt and again dying?

CAN WE STOP COMPARING IT.you cant!
living in the way you meantioned is utterly shit yes
but so if being on benefits just in a different way.and never ever any better.

I read on here last week getting a £10k back payment from tax credits and someone else who’d used there back payment from tax credits to go to New York so I don’t think life on benefits is as bad as some make out

We get child benefit the same as everyone that’s all

Not everyone gets this anymore. A family with one person working earning 60k won't get but a family with both parents earning 50k each will get it.

@Shinesweetfreedom

Tax Credits threw a lot of money to those not working to have as many kids as you wanted.Rent and Council Tax would be paid with money,sometimes large sums on top.All thanks to Labour. Compare to a couple working,only being able to afford one or two children and having to pay for everything.

It’s a situation that could not continue. That is why Universal Credit,benefits restricted to two children,the benefit cap were brought in. Why bother working when others are heavily subsidised for not working?

Very good points, and pretty much what I think.

Doesn't suit the far left to hear this though! They are just happy to throw shit loads of money at people to keep having more and more kids and stay at home at the taxpayer's expense, whilst working people ended up worse off financially.

The benefit cap was essential. Though I don't think it should have been historical. It should have only affected any future cases/claims.

I also think a shake up of people claiming PIP/DLA, and ESA was needed too, although with this also, they have been too harsh. Some people were swinging the lead for many years with very little (or nothing) wrong at all, so the system needed a shake up. But I feel sorry for the ones caught in the crossfire who are genuinely ill but have an 'invisible condition.'

But yeah as the OP said, (and several others too,) the working poor ARE very real, and it's a daily struggle for many, even now with the benefit reforms!

Over inflated house prices, (that are much higher than they should be in line with inflation,) and low wages, are (both) the main culprit.

@WorldsOnFire yes I understand that they could struggle, but £40k still isn't "poor". Your outgoings are just high.

@kateandme (at 17.04) wins the daftest, most ignorant, and most clueless post of the thread award.

I really wish people would stop using nurses as an example of poor pay. The majority of people earn less than nurses. The myth of the low pay in nursing has put many people off going into the profession, hence we now have a crisis now.

Gordon Bown was told, repeatedly tax credits was a bad idea and it was.

We had people at work, working 16 hours, their wives a sahp. They got almost the same in tax credits top ups, as they would working full time.

When the rile changed and a couple had to work 24 hours between them, they all wanted extra hours that we couldnt give them. No idea why out of a couple (assuming fit and healthy) you could get tax credits for working less than 1 full time job between you.

Now people feel they are losing something. Also employers stopped giving wage rises, in part because they knew employees were getting top ups. That makes the employers, shit. But it's still a consequence of tax credits

Salaries have stagnated over the years, and the introduction of Tax Credits to top up wages has meant that employers can get away with paying less.

In 2000 I was earning around £25k as a teacher in FE.

I'm earning less than that now, almost 20 years later. Ok, it's Charity so craply paid but many are in the same boat. There just doesn't seem to have been the exponential rise in wages that you'd expect over the years.

And yes, there are many who are in full-time work being topped up by UC. Shocking.

@Marleyisme but what about the single parents that don't earn a lot and need tax credits to help pay for childcare?

A contraction in the welfare state is always painful and should be a cautionary tale to those who would want to expand it - because what goes up, must come down.

Unfortunately, the blame only falls to those who are in charge of the contraction part - never the expansion.

It's bonkers that Blair made it so easy to have children without giving much thought to whether you should actually afford them, did he not consider the kind of misery he set in motion?

It depends on disposable income and circumstances , when both dh and myself were working full time we still struggled at the end of the month I was a,trained nurse so my income was above average ( not great ,but not bad) my son is severely autistic and has learning disabilities and I'm now his carer and although we still struggle at the end of the month I wouldn't say we are worse off,my son does get DLA which positively affects tax credits and we now live in social housing in the Northwest I was expect it we lived in the South East in private rented we would struggle a lot more

surely it also depends on your debt level?
I went self employed, got married and moved all in the space of 18 months. I racked up lots of debt that i'm paying off, if you look at my earnings i'm doing nicely, i'm repaying debt (excluding mortgage) at £1k a month. Once i'm debt free i'm going to be doing well for myself and not poor - right now I do budget down to the last £10 every month.
The difference is, this is all self inflected and I know that me being skint is (hopefully) temporary assuming all continues in my life as it is right now.
People who say they are poor may simply be poor at managing money, repaying debt but not really long term poor with no chance of circumstances changing like those on benefits.
We all have to cut out cloth accordingly

@Crazybunnylady123 Some months you don't have enough money for food and yet you've decided to have another child? I wonder what your partner's parents think about that.

but what about the single parents that don't earn a lot and need tax credits to help pay for childcare?

Yes. I have been one.

I am not saying it shoukdnt have been introduced. I am saying it was far to generous.

A couple should work at least one full time job between them. Who though that 16 hours or 24 should have been enough.

On tax credits there was plenty of people who were getting just as much as working a full time job, by working very few hours AND their partner being a sahp. At least one of them should have worked full time.

Had it had nor being so generous and used for people like single parents or those who actually need it, it may still be around. Rather than, essentially paying people to work less.

I’m sitting here really pleased at all the genuine thoughtful sensible comments. It’s great to debate without it spiralling into ‘why do you hate UC and poor people?’ or political bashing!

Some very intelligent points made btw!

I’m not having a go at anyone on UC, my point is that the lifestyle and security a profession could expect 20/30 years ago has just melted away and as a result we have FT workers in jobs that required degrees (and probably substantial student loans) who are now struggling just to get on the housing ladder, have kids and pay for basics. The result being a ‘selfish’ and ‘Scrooge like’ generation who in reality just don’t have the spare time/cash to help those ‘less fortunate’ as they’re struggling so much themselves.

Those at the very bottom of the pile suffer too as a whole section of society who would 30 years ago have been much more willing to ‘help and give’ are now just hostile and irritated.

In my area the average mortgage of a basic 3 bed home in the suburbs is £900pm. Not detached/small third bedroom - basic.
A nursery (also suburbs) is £1000pm per child.
Add on basic household bills £400 (council tax, gas/electric, TV...etc)

Then everyday expenses (food, petrol, insurance, phones ...etc) £500
A family with one child at school and one in day care needs a monthly income of £2800 to live.

Not including wrap around care for the school aged child/school lunches/clothing/entertainment/special occasions/holidays. Which I think FT working professionals are not unreasonable to expect modest provision for.

So even if you’re very conservative and live modestly a 4 person family would need at least £3000pm+ income around here. That’s two adults earning £23k.

For context my DH earns just under £70k and after deductions (Including SL and professional fees) gets £3200pm. Don’t get me wrong - we don’t struggle and I’m certainly not pleading poverty but people definitely look at us and think because of his job we ‘have loads of money’ - we don’t! He actually receives between 55-60% of his salary and mine will be less than childcare if we indulge and have a second 🙄

DLA fraud was 0.5%

We’re definitely in the working poor camp, we’re both university educated, work in professional jobs and own our own home but at the end of the month after childcare fees we’re in minus figures. We’re very lucky to have family who give us a cash injection every now and then and we’ve got access to credit so we’re never in the position of not being able to heat our house or eat but I can see how someone else in the same situation might think buggar it I’ll be a SAHP and not contribute to a pension instead.