To think many working/middle class are now ‘poor’?

[WorldsOnFire]

Inspired by the ‘People are terrible Scrooge’s who clearly don’t want to help the poor’ explosion on MN recently I read an article about a single mother on UC ‘left in tears’ as she ‘only’ had £60 left for Christmas. (Many similar threads recently about tight Christmas budgets so a lot of people in similar boats).

What shocked me was the hundreds of comments from FT working professionals - nurses, teachers, tradesmen, IT professionals, social workers... the list goes on. All jobs earning £20K+ and many with two adults in one home, all saying they were in the same (some even worse) situations. They receive no help as they earn too much but the cost of living is so high they can’t afford to heat their homes and pay their mortgages/childcare 😦. I find this shocking!

It sounds like those who don’t work/work PT (for whatever reason- not here to debate right/wrong of UC 🙄) are topped up by UC whilst those working FT aren’t and actually there’s not much difference at the end of the month.

AIBU to think that the whole country maybe aren’t terrible Scrooge’s and in reality the working/lower middle class who used to give to ‘the poor’ are now becoming The Poor and therefore are less compassionate/willing to help?

@Mrscog
I used ~52% marginal tax rate (covering income tax at 40% + NI + compulsory auto enrollment cobtributions) as that's what a higher band paying mother would have paid on this income (as presumably she has salaried income as well which consumes her 0% allowance and - largely - 20% income tax bands. Given that we are discussing income levels around £40K.
35K result is if you calculate from ground up, I.e. no other income - but then she would not have needed childcare.

@worldsonfire what bugs me is that benefits are there to HELP people, yet some people choose to not work and view benefits as an income. It infuriates me. Benefits are a safety net but they are abused and it is awful to see. Makes you wonder what the point is in getting up for work every morning!

it is never very easy and everyone in different times and stages of life regards certain things as necessities which others see as luxuries eg my (elderly) neighbour has no mobile ori nternet and no carpets downstairs but her house is warm and she has enough food. I expect life is getting harder for her with no internet but quite a few of our older people around here don't have it (and actually even though I am outer London mobile signal is so bad I certainly "need" ( well I suppose I don't need it - I could use th epost) and use a landline).

By the way I did look up Bishop Auckland yesterday where my father and grandfather were born. My grandfather was born just before it became a coting constituency of its own. It has never had a Tory MP until this week. The house my father grew up in which his father owned costs £65,000 today - nice large 3 or 4 bed roomed terraces with cellar. If you are on two full time wages of e.g. £20k in that aea you could buy that house. I am not saying everyone can always buy houses and plenty of people will not even be able to get minimum wage jobs but there are very regional differences. If we could just get more jobs back to areas like that then people struggling in London could move to £65k family houses and spend an awful lot less on rent and mortgages and probably childcare.

UC isnt an easy benefit to claim, there are many hoops people have to jump through constantly to continue receiving any benefit. If you don’t want to work then a great deal of time has to be spent looking for work, attending interviews and not getting a job

I used ~52% marginal tax rate (covering income tax at 40% + NI + compulsory auto enrollment cobtributions)

Someone earning £50k is likely to be paying student loan contributions too.

I suppose the most shocking comparison would be to look at a single parent who earns a gross £60k so no CB, pays rent, childcare and look at what they had left after those costs and tax, NI, student loans, commutting and pension contributions.

A non worker on benefits with none of those costs except some travel costs would have the same disposable income on far less actual income.

Hence why some people wonder why they bother, when they are financially in a similar position without having to work or doing a small amount of low paid local work with none of the long hours/always on requirements that a £60k job is likely to require.

However, I always looked forward and knew that my choice would pay off long term and it did. I remember when my eldest started secondary school and the childcare (breakfast/afterschool/holidays) reduced. Then 2 years later, my youngest started too and suddenly I had all that money I'd paid in childcare as addition disposable income. I genuinely felt like I'd won the lottery. With that came a promotion, and for the first time in many years, I was able to enjoy a comfortable life, which only got better. The mortgage is now paid, and I am in a position to consider reducing my hours, or paying more in my pension so I can consider retiring earlier. Having such options and being in control of my finances is a massive boost to my happiness.

You're dangerously close to suggesting you're responsible for your own fortunes.

Barbara, I suppose they are bhetter off as longer term they won't have child care costs and will have built a career and possibly got promotions. Some will have bought a house particularly in low price areas of the country too so will be paying off a mortgage over 25 years unlike someone on beneifts I suppose. Those who are new graduates with student loans will also have 9%extra student loan "tax" on pay over £25k to come off too. I wouldnm't include pension contributions on your figures however as they are voluntary - you can even opt out of auto enrolment for thoe who work so to compare our like with like we should probablys trip that out and leave both the non worker and the worker with in the non worker's case housing benefit/UC and pension credit (as no NI) in retirement or state pension for our worker who has 35 years of NI.

I think pp’s have a point.. I might seem quite comfortable now, on a combination of disability benefits / child benefits / child support / rent paid through housing benefits, but as my children grow up and move out - I’ll lose money, when I’m switched from legacy benefits to UC - I’ll lose money, I won’t have a pension, any money I put into savings now - I’ll be penalised for when I switch to UC. Whereas the person struggling now, with middling wages / high expenses, will probably be in a much much better place in 10, 20, 30 years. Plus they don’t have the panic every time a brown envelope drops through the door.
(I should add I’m exceedingly grateful for everything I get, and understand how frustrating it must be for people working 40+ hour weeks to have less disposable income in their pockets.)

I think a lot of it is to do with housing costs.

A family with a lower net income living in a low rent/mortgage area may have a greater disposable income (and possibly a bigger house) than a family with a higher net income living in a high rent/mortgage area.

My cousins in the North earn less than DH and I but seem far better off in terms of lifestyle.

There’s also the possibility that some people who appear affluent are just in stacks of debt.

Final factor- age. A couple in mid 40s who got on the housing ladder 20 years ago will have far lower housing costs than a couple in their 20s or 30s who are renting or who have bought recently.

I’d genuinely be very happy if the gov/society either worked on net wage (after all deductions), or assessed ‘household’ income rather than ‘If one person earns £51k on paper then no help!!’

My issue is exactly what a PP said.
When they ‘earn’t’ £18k they had more money than when they earn’t £31k - because of all the UC they were being topped up by.

MN is FULL of people who don’t include their UC payments in their ‘income’ when they complain.
If you earn £10k per year working PT but then get topped up by £1100 worth of UC, childcare and subsidisation each month you get the same as someone earning £30k per year- so why is it fine for you to moan but not them?? Why do they get ridiculed and abused if they say they’re struggling?

I started this thread as an opportunity for ‘the squeezed middle’ to have a moan in a safe environment - not to bash UC - but it seems you can’t do one without doing the other.

“what bugs me is that benefits are there to HELP people, yet some people choose to not work and view benefits as an income. It infuriates me. Benefits are a safety net but they are abused and it is awful to see” that certainly isn’t the case under UC and I’m not actually sure it was ever the case!

Unless someone is disabled/sick themselves or has caring responsibilities they’re expected to be looking for work and proving this.

You also need to understand (and a previous pp also seems to be under a misapprehension on this score) that there AREN’T enough jobs to go around! Even by this govts own figures iirc from last time I checked it’s something like there are 4 x more jobseekers than there are jobs available - and that’s only including those job seekers who would’ve been on job seekers allowance under the old system, not anyone on disability benefits who may also be looking for work, also it does include ALL jobs advertised even those that are only a few hours a week - “Saturday jobs” that were in the past more available to older schoolchildren and students but are now being filled as 2nd/3rd jobs by adults with families of their own to supplement poorly paid “main” jobs.

A few years ago both myself and dd were job hunting (I was being literally “crazily” optimistic), dd has just left school but had good qualifications to that level and work experience from weekend, holiday and voluntary work. I have 2 degrees, significant work experience and good refs - but a large gap in cv due to ill health.

We both applied for many jobs daily, not only local but up to our nearest city (providing the pay offered meant commuting costs were covered) which is 90 mins away by train.

Dd was fortunate and managed within about 2 months of applying for approx 6-8 jobs every day - applications are quite in-depth now plus there’s the searching time - found a job.

I applied for over 200 in about a 6 week period (my health started to spiral down again) and got 2 replies one of which was automated! And that was even being supported by someone who specialised in helping long term sick applicants return to work and recommending employers open to that - but the vacancies simply weren’t there.

In addition most applications were via online agencies and interestingly they sometimes showed how many applicants per vacancy and they would be in the hundreds less than 24 hours of the vacancy going live.

That won’t be the same everywhere I know as this is a deprived area so there is high unemployment and our “high street” has been decimated and we’ve lost several big industrial employers as they’ve taken those jobs overseas where it’s cheaper for many reasons.

And believe me, as someone who has been on disability benefits long term it is not easy to claim these!

I made many mistakes when I first claimed and was initially declined, my gp directed me to a charity related to my particular issues (mainly mental health) and I was shocked to learn applications based on certain conditions were pretty much automatically rejected. I had a photocopy of my completed claim form (ex civil servant myself - old habits die hard) which when an advisor looked at it there was loads of information I’d left out, a combination of my mistakenly thinking that info was irrelevant, misplaced pride meaning I’d basically described my very best days and embarrassment regarding some activities/symptoms - I’ve since learned (the hard way) to be blatantly honest about the worst aspects of how I live.

I’ve also learned the dwp are not above being flagrant liars! At one point I was actually told DLA was never available for mental illness. The very first time I spoke with dwp ever in my life was when ex and I split and I was going to be claiming as a single mum (I was frantically job hunting too - certainly not planning to choose not to work) and was told the utter bullshit that because my soon to be ex was military I couldn’t claim - she wouldn’t even give me the forms!

We’re seeing such appalling behaviour has massively increased with disability assessments, they’re not only lying verbally now which they could maybe deny, but written lies, that they seem completely unashamed of.

A lot of smugness and assumptions on this thread, and ‘i am doing life right and that’s why I’m doing better’ there’s an awful lot of luck involved in how well a person does and life can turn things upside down with no warning!

At 30 I was married, working, healthy and raising dd in a good secure environment...

By 35 I was a disabled, single mum struggling to get by.

Not everything can be planned for/mitigated.

ColdTatty you can pay into a pension? I’m on benefits due to the dc being on a DLA, I work a few hours a week self employed, I don’t earn enough to pay tax but I pay into a pension each month, not a huge amount but it’s something. I worry about what will happen when my dc’s move out as I will have nothing, will likely lose the house as even if I’m working full time I will struggle to pay the rent on my own.

@Lovemusic33 I am a SAHM due to my own disability and my dc. How do you pay into a pension if you are self employed . Would you mind telling me the name of your pension provider if you would recommend them. Thank you

MyDc my pension is with Hargreaves Landsdown, I don’t pay in a fortune but it’s something, I was worried at not putting anything back and being self employed I don’t get a pension through an employer. I have been paying into it for a few years now. Hopefully when the dc’s leave home I will be working full time and be able to pay more into it.

@Lovemusic33 I really should look into it. I’m hoping in a few years to be able to start a small business working from home, to maybe be able to earn a little extra too.

@Lovemusic33 thank you, it’s something I really need to prioritise in 2020.

We are working class and bring in somewhere around 60k/year.

On paper it seems like we should be rolling in it but we most definitely are not! We don’t live extravagantly either, we live in a small 2bed in the north and have older cars etc, almost never go out, in fact I feel poor compared to most people on social media in my friendship groups.

We have decided to only have one child as financially two would squeeze us too much.

I can't actually afford to go back to work as my £20k wage would be spent on full time child care and getting to work and back as childcare where I live is over £1250 a month meaning I couldn't even pay my bills and that's a 48hour week.
My husband is on 30k and he can barely keep up with the price of our rent, council tax and electricity so he can't even help with childcare costs as he's got the rest of the bills plus our food.
So we might look well off but we are up shit creek Nevermind trying to save for a house. We're trapped in the rent cycle and can't even afford to move out of a mould ridden house because this is considered cheap now since rent has risen and we've been here so long that ours hasn't gone up.
Don't even get me started on maternity pay which almost covers my bills. And before anyone says it was my choice and I should have saved I did but I had hyperemisis so all my pre baby savings kept me barely afloat while stuck of ssp when I was pregnant meaning we had nothing left when I had the baby.
It's ridiculous that this is how we have to live.

I used to get by ok on a £35k salary having no kids, but it defo wasn't the high life. Decent enough flat and newish sports hatch, plus couple of Mediterranean holidays a year.

We are not entitled to any benefits at all apart from child benefit and earn £20k each, or me £12k when I return to work after maternity leave. Going back a few years I would have considered that combined salary to be ok but now it's a struggle, mainly due to the cost of bills constantly rising and having years without a pay rise. We have cut back on just about everything and we hardly have any luxuries. If we choose to have a second child we would wait at least 3 years as there is no way we could pay for 2 in nursery.

@transformandriseup You would get some help on 32k with one child and childcare costs. Have you done a calculation of UC?

It's all about money management, when I was teaching we all knew roughly each other's salary but there were vast differences in how it was spent, new car every couple of years, moving relentlessly up the property ladder etc. Some managed well and some were struggling to maintain their chosen lifestyle.
Words like 'working class' and 'middle class' are so meaningless, they belonged back in the 50s, they're certainly not relevant to income, many 'working class' jobs pay far more than many 'middle class' jobs.

On the pension issue I had a SIPP and I managed the shares (not everyone will want to do that with their pension investments but for some it works out well. I cashed it in at age 55 (I never had an employer contribution into it either by the way and I work for myself)). I cashed it in at age 55 (the youngest age you currently can in most cases as I know it is likely I wll work until I die and I wanted the older children to have some money towards housing (and HMRC got 45% of 75% of the pension fund - lucky Big State; I hope the state spends it wisely).

On jobs available for those fit enough to work. we currently in a lot of the country now have the fullest employment since the 1950s. it is the first time I remember it like this (having graduated in 1982 to just about no jobs, even I had to apply to about 139 graduate employers -it was a terrible time to get jobs and there have been many terrible times since). However as said above it is a regional issue - a lot of people who work down here (outer London) even commute down to work in the week (these tend to be pretty mobile working men whose wives stay with the children in the week) or they house share down here (again single people with no children).

I heard on the radio that during the same time period that wages have risen %12 childcare has risen 700%.

It annoys me when people bring up 15% interest rate in 1992 as an argument that things were as hard then as now- they were only 15% for ONE DAY!!!