SNP and Scotland leaving U.K.

[Hester54]

AIBU to not understand Scotland wishing to leave the U.K., can someone explain to me without being nasty or patronising, why is Scotland’s problem with the U.K.? Even before the U.K. ref

Nicola Sturgeon giving a statement in the Scottish Parliament now; seems like quite a canny approach that doesn't take anything for granted (which is only right given that a Yes vote does not look certain)

kikisparks Neither can Labour supporting areas, that's a democracy.

Thethiniceofanewday Am I meant to take one persons response as the one and only reason people have?
I have been asking for ways that Scotland are treated differently by Westminster to the rest of the UK, why do people get so uptight?

kikisparks Neither can Labour supporting areas, that's a democracy.

Are the Labour supporting areas a country?

I have been asking for ways that Scotland are treated differently by Westminster to the rest of the UK, why do people get so uptight?

Because you have been told many times - the poll tax, MPs leaving when the SNP try to speak in parliament etc.

Also, in certain ways, Scotland should be treated differently but isn't. Scotland has a different education system etc.

Am I meant to take one persons response as the one and only reason people have

I can’t be arsed to count but I’d guess you’ve had at least 60, maybe a hundred different posters giving their views.

I’m starting to think you aren’t genuinely interested in the answers.

Not just whether Scotland can join the EU, that’s a good question, we need to see concrete tax implications for funding the deficit...whatever the rights and wrongs politically, I can’t see how the budget will stack up for viability without huge cuts.

Scotland’s freedom all very lovely but I can’t see a credible plan for deficit funding.

The supposed "deficit" is run up under Westminster rule, the GERS figures have no relevance to an independent Scotland.

@Hester54 Labour supporting “areas” are not a country.

@HirplesWithHaggis

Well yes they do have relevance are you so blinded by independence that you can’t see the facts? Even Derek MacKay said the figures weren’t where they wanted them to be.

In addition, this is with Scotland using sterling. There is no guarantee that we’d be using that in an independent Scotland 🤦🏻‍♀️ Can you imagine entering into another current union or god forbid start our own currency? Explain how you would keep that deficit down, please, I implore you.

And please don’t get me started on the the SNP running the Scottish Education system into the ground.

Currency union*

Richard Murphy explains quite clearly why GERS figures are irrelevant to an independent Scotland.

@Hester54 would it help you to imagine that England has it’s own parliament which makes some of the decisions for England on specific areas, like health and housing, but they also send 58 MPs to a 650 MP parliament in Scotland where other decisions are made on various issues including immigration, taxation and national security?

In this scenario every election England sends mostly conservative MPs to a parliament that’s mostly other parties although some areas of Scotland vote conservative. The parliament, naturally as it has more Scottish MPs, generally makes decisions that benefit Scotland, often which are counter intuitive to the interests of England. When English MPs speak other MPs walk out and the tv news pans away as it is looked on as an unimportant area of the U.K by Scotland. English people are told they are a drain on Scottish resources, and those in England who want to be independent are either told they’re stupid for wanting to leave or that it’ll be good riddance to bad rubbish. For the sake of this scenario imagine Scotland’s population is larger.

As an English person would you think this is all fine as your area (being England) is just one area of the U.K.?

And absolutely we should have our own currency. Who needs to be dragged down with a declining pound?

@HirplesWithHaggis thanks for that article, an interesting read (and contains in it a few reasons Scotland might want to make decisions for ourselves even just at a fiscal and financial level!)

I am Scottish and like the majority of Scots I do not want to leave the UK.

In 2014 55% of us voted No
In 2019 55% of us voted for Unionist Parties.

Nothing has changed.

The man behind Corbynomics eh? I see Richard Murphy has distanced himself from that!

So Richard Murphy’s case rests on the idea that the tax system is biased towards wealth and large business friendly - does sound very like the ideas given a beating as not credible in a recent UK election.

kikisparks (and anyone else genuinely interested), Wings Over Scotland also has a comprehensive discussion re GERS.

@HirplesWithHaggis

Thanks for sending that. It is an interesting read, even for someone like me who vehemently disagrees with independence.

I’m quite taken by the idea that Scotland will vigorously pursue the tax gap. Absolutely no consideration to the huge costs that go in to attacking that tax gap. Also, no consideration to the many HMRC employees in Scotland who work tirelessly in compliance and deal with wealth spread out over the UK. Quite simply, they’re out of a job. DFID is based in Scotland too. Interested to know how a foreign aid budget would pan out. More jobs up the spout.

I’ll never agree with independence. I think the SNP are failing on a pretty grand scale but people are blinkered by independence.

We could go back and forth on it but I think it’s a disaster waiting to happen 🤷🏻‍♀️

Richard Murphy questions GERS data collection and says that Scotland doesn’t have good enough data to be able to make economic decisions. That is not really saying that Scotland can cope with the deficit they have, at all, just that the data can’t be trusted.

Not hopeful news on the deficit! This merely looks like the snp strategy of trotting out experts they agree with in some part to rubbish other groups of experts.

The main point about GERS is that, however they are compiled, they relate to Scotland's economy as part of the Union, not as an independent country setting our own tax rates and spending our own money.

English nationalism is dragging Scotland, against its will, out of the EU. They are looking for self determination

@HirplesWithHaggis

As i said, it’s an interesting article. We need to take both sides on board.

I think the issue many No Voters have is that the SNP cannot/have not been able to answer conclusively questions posed to them.

I understand why you want independence but the SNP have done nothing to convince me with facts and figures that it is economically viable.

55% did not vote for unionist parties- you are forgetting the greens!

Not all independence supporters are snp supporters/ voters.

The Gaelic language act was brought in by labour not the snp.

It isnt the snp government that decide on signage- that is done by councils- most of whom aren’t snp controlled.

delineateddelinquent, yes, we need to look at both sides, but often questions being asked simply cannot yet be answered. What currency? Last time we offered a currency union, where we would keep the £, but that was bizarrely and illogically refused. We could use it anyway of course, but would lack any control. We could use the € (without joining the EU), the $ (US, Aus, Canadian...), any tradeable currency, but again we would lack control. I favour a new currency, personally. But it's a matter to be decided in post-Yes negotiations and simply cannot be set in stone in advance.

It's the same with joining EU/EFTA. Assuming it happens soon, our laws etc are all fully EU-compliant and no-one has expressed horror at Scotland rejoining - all current noises are friendly and welcoming (yes, even from Spain, who like our seafoods). Under what conditions though? That would be subject to negotiation, probably not as good a deal as we currently enjoy, but the trading advantages would be enormous.

No-one has a crystal ball. But WM government predictions of massive losses to the economy all over the UK (6% in Scotland, 11% in NE England...) make independence very attractive to me. We may fuck it up, but it will be our own fuck up and we can hold our politicians to account. We can do nothing about Boris.