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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To tell XP DS wont be seeing him?

548 replies

Chaosdragon · 15/12/2019 21:29

Background.
XP was abusive. Mostly verbal and emotional, but occasionally physical. He has not seen DS1 for 7 years. DS is now 15. We would disagree about the reasons for this.
He would blame me 100%. I would blame us both.
Ultimately after 2 years in court indirect contact only was ordered which XP has not done until he started sporadically 12 months ago.

He wants to see DS. DS doesn't want to see him. I, his counsellor and the school all believe he is old enough to have his wishes respected. He can articulate the reasons he doesn't want to see his dad, and they are reasonable.

XP disagrees and says he cannot respect DSs wishes until he has spent some time in his company directly and DS articulate directly to him why he doesn't want to see him. If he is old enough to have his wishes respected, he is old enough to explain them directly to XP. If he isn't mature enough for this then he isn't mature enough to make the decision.

We last disagreed over this in September and since then I have heard nothing from him, until today.

I have received a message which says ...

"I intend to be at your house on 24th December. I will have stuff for DS. Arrange for him to be in my company for hour to see if we can sort things out. This isnt an unreasonable ask. If hes as mature as you say then I am confident he can manage it"

He sends me into a complete panic. And I have spent the last 2 hours trying to compose a reply and then redoing it because he makes me feel unreasonable and I end up either saying too much and it becomes and essay or it becomes too short and abrasive.

AIBU to just reply ....

Feel free to drop the presents off. DS will not be available to see you.

Any better suggestions?

OP posts:
MyMajesty · 18/12/2019 23:33

Gate shut and dogs in the garden, as per your original plan, seems like the best idea.

Tell him again, if you like, that DS doesn't want the gifts and doesn't want to see him so he is to stay away at all times.

WhenISnappedAndFarted · 18/12/2019 23:34

Stick to your original plan. You've spoken to the police so if at any point you're worried then call them.

MyMajesty · 18/12/2019 23:43

as the onus is on me to enforce / vary the order if I dont like what hes doing.
Surely there's a better way of enforcing the order, than making you jump through more hoops?

The solicitor doesn't seem to understand that "indirect contact only" means no direct contact.

WireBrushAndDettolMaam · 18/12/2019 23:51

shes saying if she writes the letter to him it gives him the opportunity to engage with her if that makes sense?

She’s right. It gives him an opening- something he can go through and unpick every sentence and respond with his own twisting of it to suit his agenda and his arrogance won’t allow him to not respond. So he will, and then your solicitor will have to bring you in to discuss his response and you’ll have to decide whether to respond etc. Don’t open that channel for him. You are in control of the access he has to you not the other way round.

Stompythedinosaur · 19/12/2019 00:03

I think you are doing a great job in a horrible situation op.

I'd leave him outside the gates too.

Nifflernancy · 19/12/2019 00:07

Do not answer, do not open the gates. No good can come of that so do not put yourself in that situation by choice.

Glovesick · 19/12/2019 06:35

I am a solicitor, but not family. Have also gone through similar.

The court order says Mum to facilitate indirect contact only. It doesn't prohibit direct contact. As a family solicitor said up thread, many people misread this.

So neither of you are in breach of the order, if you allow direct contact. Don't try to argue that.

Better to argue that you don't have to facilitate direct contact. You have considered the benefits for the child of doing so, taking into account:

  1. The previous assessment of professionals which resulted in an order maintaining a duty to facilitate indirect contact;
  1. The child's wishes and feelings;
  1. The counsellors recommendations;
  1. The school's recommendations;
  1. Your own duties to safeguard your child and provide for his emotional health;
  1. The importance of a child having a relationship with both its biological parents.
  1. The father's representations and desire to see his son.
  1. The impact of any decision on the existing bond between father and son.

You have concluded that on balance, direct contact is not appropriate at this time, and for that reason you will not voluntarily facilitate it. You will keep this under review.

Glovesick · 19/12/2019 06:45

I would not engage on detail, and I certainly would not have a conversation with XP.

He can't and won't accept he is being rejected. Once he just hits a brick wall because you are not responding, he will probably go away for another while and try again in a few months/years/when son is 18.

Wanting to see DS is a selfish thing. It is for the benefit of xp, not your son. He clearly cares little for DS, trying to push him into a confrontation at Christmas of all times. If xp finds it too hard to make any headway, he will give up for a while, because the effort he has to put in will outweigh his selfish desire to see DS. It clearly has before during the years of silence.

blueheaven97 · 19/12/2019 09:15

I think the way XP has approached this from the start pretty much says everything about him. He could have tried reaching out to you to say he'd like another chance to be involved in your son's life and would it be possible to try to find a way to work towards that happening. Instead he issued you with demands, despite being in no position of authority to do so.

justilou1 · 19/12/2019 10:30

My concern is that once EX does not get what he wants, he will become enraged at both OP and son. He is likely to hang around the premises and approach whoever leaves the house first. It takes the police 16mins to arrive. I don’t think that 15 is old enough (or big enough) to deal with an angry, enraged father, and yet son may try to protect his mum. I don’t think OP is emotionally or physically equipped to protect herself from this man either.

MzHz · 19/12/2019 11:07

Abusers are cowards, I very much doubt he actually intends to turn up

The op has dogs, can let them out and close the gate, he won’t get to the house

If he does turn up, she can see he’s there and call the police and tell them he’s being abusive and threatening (even if he’s not...) they’ll turn up, suggest he goes away and that will be that.

Glovesick · 19/12/2019 13:58

I also doubt he will turn up and make a public scene which will end in him not getting what he wants. He is more likely not to turn up and use his non attendance as evidence of his reasonableness.

lynzpynz · 19/12/2019 14:28

Your order says you have to facilitate indirect contact yes? But then clarifies limited to gifts, letters etc. yes? Surely you can meet this by facilitating letters and gifts are passed on when posted to you and anything else you can ensure DS is available for contact - but you are under zero obligation to force DS to then complete the step of picking up phone, meeting him or replying?

XP appears to have gone in 'you will do as I say' and when he's realised it's not worked had tried the 'I'm so reasonable' weasel words approach (but it's clear there's still huge elements of trying to tell you what to do).

I'd not answer the door and tell him you won't be as you have told him repeatedly he is not to approach your property. I'd say my part in facilitating that DS gets gifts will be you leaving them with his mum and she can pass them on at her leisure to DS who can then decide what to do with them. You come to my house you can sit in your car. DS owes you nothing, and if you want him to have you in his life you forcing him to speak to you when he tells me, his Councillor etc he doesn't want to is just going to alienate him even further. Go through the courts officially, and stop trying to tell me to do things when you have absolutely no power over me except by trying to misinterpret a legal document to suit your own demands.

Good idea with the camera, will all play in to your defence legally if you've explicitly told him not to approach, provided alternative ways for indirect passing of gifts and he does what he wants anyway.

dottypotter · 19/12/2019 16:02

he obvs cares why cant ds talk to him.

Ds might be a dad one day himself. What will he teach his children if he dosent see his own dad.

Just a different viewpoint can he not talk to his dad.

WhenISnappedAndFarted · 19/12/2019 16:03

@dottypotter you can't be serious?

This is an abusive man and if you've ever had any experience with an abusive person you wouldn't be saying that.

Ginger1982 · 19/12/2019 16:16

"he obvs cares "

Which part of what the OP has posted makes you think that? 🙄

MushroomTree · 19/12/2019 16:16

@dottypotter one assumes that when DS becomes a father he won't emotionally, verbally or physically abuse the mother of his child.

Unfortunately the ex has done those things and therefore waives all right to his child being expected to have a relationship with him.

DS clearly sees his father for what he is. A nasty, selfish abuser who has no intention of changing.

MyMajesty · 19/12/2019 18:27

dottypotter Why do you suppose a court has specified 'indirect contact only'?
Because Ex has shown himself to be an unpleasant person who would not be good for DS.

WireBrushAndDettolMaam · 19/12/2019 18:36

he obvs cares why cant ds talk to him.

Because he is abusive, manipulative and neglectful and DS doesn’t want to. That’s why.

Panpastels · 19/12/2019 18:41

Demanding to see his son is not a sign of caring. He hasn't bothered with him the rest of the time, he's decided for whatever reason to try and exert some control over OP.
Oh and the court agrees so...

strawberry2017 · 19/12/2019 18:55

I've been reading the thread and I may have missed it but have you told your son what is going on? Have you told him there is a chance he will turn up? X

Sn0tnose · 19/12/2019 19:07

he obvs cares why cant ds talk to him.

Ds might be a dad one day himself. What will he teach his children if he dosent see his own dad.

Just a different viewpoint can he not talk to his dad.

@dottypotter it’s not just a different viewpoint, it’s a fucking stupid viewpoint. Read the OPs very first post which explains exactly why he doesn’t want to talk to his father. Shame on you for trying to make her doubt whether she’s doing the best thing to protect her son with your abuse enabling bollocks.

FantasticButtocks · 19/12/2019 19:17

If you communicate with him again before Christmas Eve (I'm not suggesting that you do though) but if you do, might it be an idea to say you've informed the police of his intention to come to your house when you've said not to, and the fact he is persisting in demanding actual contact, and that they are standing by should he go ahead with his plan to turn up. That might put him off.

Merryoldgoat · 19/12/2019 19:45

@dottypotter

It’s the weak and disordered thinking like that displayed in your post that gives people such poor boundaries.

This man has mistreated his son and a family court (generally notorious for being lenient with abusive men) has ruled he’s only entitled to indirect contact.

It’s clear it’s not in his son’s interest to see him.

Draw up your strength OP. You can do it. Protect yourself and your son.

SmileyGiraffe · 19/12/2019 20:34

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