To tell XP DS wont be seeing him?

[Chaosdragon]

Background.
XP was abusive. Mostly verbal and emotional, but occasionally physical. He has not seen DS1 for 7 years. DS is now 15. We would disagree about the reasons for this.
He would blame me 100%. I would blame us both.
Ultimately after 2 years in court indirect contact only was ordered which XP has not done until he started sporadically 12 months ago.

He wants to see DS. DS doesn't want to see him. I, his counsellor and the school all believe he is old enough to have his wishes respected. He can articulate the reasons he doesn't want to see his dad, and they are reasonable.

XP disagrees and says he cannot respect DSs wishes until he has spent some time in his company directly and DS articulate directly to him why he doesn't want to see him. If he is old enough to have his wishes respected, he is old enough to explain them directly to XP. If he isn't mature enough for this then he isn't mature enough to make the decision.

We last disagreed over this in September and since then I have heard nothing from him, until today.

I have received a message which says ...

"I intend to be at your house on 24th December. I will have stuff for DS. Arrange for him to be in my company for hour to see if we can sort things out. This isnt an unreasonable ask. If hes as mature as you say then I am confident he can manage it"

He sends me into a complete panic. And I have spent the last 2 hours trying to compose a reply and then redoing it because he makes me feel unreasonable and I end up either saying too much and it becomes and essay or it becomes too short and abrasive.

AIBU to just reply ....

Feel free to drop the presents off. DS will not be available to see you.

Any better suggestions?

Does your son know about his contact/texts?

If I were you I would go and see Star Wars on Christmas Eve. I would also talk to the police about it.

Totally agree with everything @IWorkAtTheCheesecakeFactory is saying. Completely disengage. Silence is a response in itself and the only one he should be getting.

Nodding along to everything Helpfullilly has written there.

Can't you meet at a public spot like Costa coffee etc? Why on earth would she want to do that? The point is to get him to leave them alone, not engage with him over lattes.

OP, stay strong. Anyone who is suggesting that your DS should talk to his father clearly has no experience with abusive parents. I was 42 before I realised I was no longer terrified of mine (who sounded similar to your ex). There would have been no way I could have stood up to him at 15. A previous poster suggested seeking advice from WomensAid about the best, and safest, way to respond and I think that’s an excellent piece of advice.

@whatsyaname

He is not a normal dad or normal person. This is an abusive, manipulative and violent man. The stuff about not believing DS and DS not being mature enough to decide are just attempts by XP to manipulate the OP into letting him abuse her and DS again.

He does not and never will care about the child's views or feelings, only his own. If the child's feelings or views mattered to him at all he would not have been abusive to the child or OP to begin with.

Any kind of relationship or interaction with the father means abuse. This is why the child does not want to know him and why there is a court order where the father has no right to direct contact. (Also why there is no point in continuing replying to him via text, he simply does not care about others views or feelings, he just wants to be abusive and use others for his own enjoyment. You cannot reason with someone like that).

Of course the child's abuser does not care that the child does not want to see him or to be abused. Nor about the court order, views of the OP, his child's counsellor, or anyone else. The lack of care is what enables them to hurt their own children and partners when a normal person would not. It is an integral part of the abuser's personality and way of interacting with others. A meeting in Costa Coffee is not going to change that.

@Helpfullily your responses are absolutely correct and incredibly insightful

I’m so sorry that you have the right kind of TShirt that has given you this knowledge and experience

Please @Chaosdragon if you listen to only one pp on here it should be @Helpfullily, she knows how these monsters think and she knows what your son would be going through If he didn’t have you (and mumsnet ) batting for him.

You can do this, get the police and legal muscle engaged and go absolutely zero tolerance on his bullshit, but maintain zero contact from now.

I don’t think he will turn up, this is merely to scare and intimidate you both to ruin your Christmas

Don’t you dare let him. (((Hug)))

I have wondered if he would try and snatch him, but I think he wouldn't be that stupid. He would have to come back eventually and the consequences would surely be dire for him. He isn't a stupid person, just very confident his opinion is right!

I can't believe so many of you didn't find his last text reasonable. I actually heaved a sigh of relief when I read it because it was calm and polite.

I am going to try and not to respond. I know how it will go and we will just circle around with me getting more and more stressed until eventually I say something which he will hold over me forever as proof of what a terrible insane person I am.

I have a free telephone appointment with a solicitor tomorrow afternoon so I will see what she says about what next steps I can take.

I haven't called the police. I am not sure I want to open that can of worms - assuming they would even do anything which I don't have oceans of confidence in. But I have ordered a camera from Amazon which will arrive tomorrow and I will get that installed so that if he does arrive I have a record of what he does.

He can't actually get to the door of the house in any event if I let the dogs out in the front garden and lock the gate, so he can only ring the far bell. If I see it is him (which I can do from the house) I just won't answer.

He knows he isnt wining OP - hence the last text

Dont fall for his "nice man" act. He isnt reasonable.

You must follow through with the police if he turns up

My thoughts at the moment are that I am going to stay in and have our Xmas eve as normal. I will not be chased out of my own house by him. I'm hopeful he won't turn up although that does leave me the worry of what else he will do, but there is always that problem whatever I do unless I agree to everything he wants.

I just really want to thank you all for bolstering my courage like this. This is the first time ever that I can remember that I actually feel sort of calm and like I can do this.

@Chaosdragon calling the police won't open a can of worms. But it will mean all of this is already logged if the situation does escalate.

Well done on not replying. You've said yourself it won't get you anywhere so why bother? All you're doing is continuing to play his game.

And well done on ordering the camera. If he does arrive you'll have evidence of it and he won't be able to give a version of events that suits him rather than the truth.

You've taken some great steps. Keep taking them. Your son needs to see that you're doing everything possible to keep him emotionally and physically safe.

Thanks mushoom. I am trying at least. DS (and his younger brother) are the most important things in the world to me and if I need to step up more, then that is what I will do. I may slip along the way (I know myself and my flaws far too well) but I will get there.

Having evidence will make no difference to how he sees and reports events, but it will hopefully help me to be able to look at it more rationally as well as provide evidence for 3rd party people if necessary.

If nothing else I absolutely admire his confidence and conviction. If I was even a tenth as self assured as he was I would rule the world by now :)

Keep going @Chaosdragon. I don't know where in the country you are but if you're in Hampshire I can give you the number of a DV organisation who can support you and your children. If not, give Women's Aid a call.

And please do call the police. To log what's happened so far and if he turns up on Christmas eve.

He's self assured because he's a narcissist and, mistakenly, believes he's right. Any sane person knows he's not. He'll tell people whatever suits his agenda but you know the truth and you have the evidence to let the relevant third parties know the truth too.

@Chaosdragon his confidence and conviction may well be his downfall.

Just reading your last couple of posts, it seems like you're getting a bit more confidence and more fight.

You're protecting your boys and definitely doing the right thing!

His texts remind me of my xh, also an abusive manipulator. The last one is designed to sound reasonable, and to infer you are the one with issues ("you just be having a hard time = you clearly can't be reasonable, so I will be the generous one and make a concession)

It is totally unreasonable to spoil DS's Xmas, to put you on edge, wondering what he will do next. I have been through this.

If you must respond, and I agree with others that you should not, simply say

"Your response is noted but does not change my position. I will keep this matter under review, and should anything change, I will contact you. Until then, I will not engage in any further exchanges with you."

Lock the gate, let the dogs out and take the batteries out of the far bell. Hopefully you'll never know whether he pitched up or not!

It isn't confidence and conviction.

It is arrogance and stupidity.

Just so you know, you are WELL within your rights to call the police with the evidence you have. Not only is HE trying to break a court order, but he is attempting to bully YOU into breaking a court order as well, by forcing DS into direct contact with someone he doesn’t want to see. He is harassing you and attempting to intimidate you. I think you have more than enough to go on to get the police to pay him a visit.

I have wondered if he would try and snatch him, but I think he wouldn't be that stupid.

Angry men do stupid things. Do yourself the favour of not under estimating him.

Have you decided what you will do if he turns up at the gate at any point?

He may try and catch you off guard by coming before or after Xmas Eve when you think you’re safe. Keep an eye open when you’re going in and out of the house. Have a plan in your head for what you will do if he approaches you or DS outside of the house. I advise not speaking to him at all and calling the police.

@IWorkAtTheCheesecakeFactory has a good point. You and your son need to have a plan if he just turns up. Does your son have a phone so he can call the police if needed?

I think you have already opened the can of escalating conflict by re-engaging in contact with him after all these years. If you were not in contact via text/phone you would not be having to worry about this at all. There would be no harassment or Christmas eve ultimatums.

I don't say that to blame you. He is ultimately at fault. It's just I've seen it with my mum and I think making you aware might help you. My dad chose my mum because she has weak boundaries and then he trained her further during their marriage to respond to his behaviour. I see traits of this in your reactions.

He's abused you and DS, including acts of violence and yet in your first post you are concerned about being rude to him by being too abrupt. More like he's an awkward relation than your child's abuser.

Why?

As if he'd ever worry about being abrupt with you, or are you still trying to appease him as a form of damage limitation? Does part of you think it's your fault and if only you could find the right words he'd respond like a normal human being?

It's actually just he's an abusive psycho. You can't change him, but you can change how you react. You are and that is great, but don't be afraid to call the police, even if they don't do anything. I found it very useful for civil proceedings and if you keep trying then sometimes you find ones who get it.

If part of it is fear of his anger and escalating conflict, like I say, I think you are already in that battle. Also, if he reacts by freaking out and trying to prove you can't control HIM, that can be part of how you know you are doing the right thing, because he doesn't like it (though it might fill you with dread to imagine his reaction due to what this has meant in the past). If he doesn't like it (being an abuser) it's probably the right thing to do. Appeasement and trying to be nice as a form of damage control just prolongs the abuse, it's part of how people end up trapped in such relationships. Sometimes giving both barrels right away leads to a massive reaction but actually puts a stop to it much faster.

My mum has had some counselling with Women's Aid which helped her so much with how to deal with my dad, she's having some again now with a different counsellor as she's noticed other issues she still has which she wants help with. It's been great for her, and our relationship. So, this might be worth considering. You are already making great progress.

Very proud of you and I hope the solicitor is able to help you with potential legal options. -- You've got this.

Well done for getting the camera arranged and contacting a solicitor, OP.
Please do speak to the police, as this man is harassing you and DS.

It doesn't matter if he plans to grab DS, or not.
You mustn't allow DS to be put in a situation where there's even a chance that might happen.

DS has made his wishes clear, and there is a court order to back him up.
DS should be your priority, not this man from your past.

All the best for your conversation with the solicitor.

This is how I saw the email you thought was quite reasonable.

You are obviously having a difficult time atm. I am just trying to be helpful. = Right, I'm going to try a different tack. Need to make my message sound normal/reasonable. Also, put her in the light of someone struggling, incapable and needing help, put me in good light of offering help. (Just in case she keeps these emails to show to anyone)

It will do you good to share the responsibility of being a parent. = I know what's good for you better than you do. Give you a break. = make it look like I'm trying to do you a favour, rather than trying to get you to do what I want you to do.

Just send DS out to get the gifts. = bloody well do what I say. Who cares what ds says? He is 15 and shouldn't have a say. A few presents should lure him out.

Its natural and lets us talk. = I would have an opportunity to make him see things my way, regardless of his feelings on the matter. I am using the fact I'm his father to overrule both him, and you.

Its a lot better than what you intend to do. = what you are proposing is unreasonable. How dare you disobey me, I know best. Stop trying to stop me.

Banning me from my sons house and calling the police. = I want to come to your house even though you have told me not to, even though ds doesn't want to see me. I have every right. I don't care about your right to be safe, nor ds's right to have an opinion and to be safe. I intend to have my own way, with no negative consequences, how dare you go against me and what I want. How dare you threaten to get me into trouble.

You need to encourage DS not be a barrier to contact = it is your responsibility to make ds think it's a good idea to see me, even though he is adamant he doesn't want to. Even though the order says 'indirect contact is the only thing you have to facilitate. Let's scrap that bollocks - really, you need to force him to change his mind and give me what I want. It is your job to join me in totally disrespecting what he says.

Really, op, as others have said, it wasn't reasonable. It was bullying, patronising and manipulative. He changed his tone (but only a little) because his approach of issuing orders wasn't working. He wanted to try a different way to get the same thing that you have said no to. That's all. I'm glad you're not falling for it.

I agree with others, time to engage solicitors and speak to the police. He obviously doesn't give the first shit about your boundaries or your sons, and is prepared to get past them any way he can, either by bullying or wheedling or whatever works. Hes not being reasonable in the slightest. Think about it, if someone had told you several times to leave them alone, would you still be pushing to see them in person? Normal decent people would stay away.

@FantasticButtocks

Good analysis!!