To think that Turkeys Voted for Christmas?

[StormzysHat]

NC. This could appear goady but honestly it's a genuine confusion to me.

According to what we are led to believe by the media / some people on MN, "northerners" (as a generic group) voted for Conservatives because they are disadvantaged and fed up with the north south divide among other reasons.

How come disadvantaged Londoners voted Labour? I work in support sector and many people in my care will be in shelters this Christmas, and others rely on food banks. They were saddened and disheartened by Labour's loss and felt the Conservatives in no way represent them. This is on top of the Tory devised hostile environment and Windrush scandal making peoples' lives hell.

I understand that people are / have been pissed off and wanted to have their voices heard. But WHY would the very communities ravaged by the Tories in the 80's vote for them?

Why is it that Corbyn who lives in a very modest way, in Upper Holloway and who went to grammar school is seen as less acceptable than an old Etonian millionaire proven liar? How can Boris Jonson be seen as someone who can help the north south divide or to champion the working class FFS??

I completely accept Corbyn's leadership has been poor and don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan. BUT, given the alternative, I can't understand HOW working class people could vote for Johnson?

AIBU to think the turkeys just voted for Christmas?

I would rather live on Germany than Sweden today. Even Denmark has closed its border due to the bombings. Nothing to do with recent immigration policies though I'm sure.

Winter of discontent anyone?

Labour were in power for 13 years in the Blair years.

Utilities et all did not get nationalised, why?

TB realised very quickly it would cost a shed load of money

I understand that Christmas has been cancelled while the result of the GE is argued about 😳 so turkeys are ok for a while longer

Post New Year, Labour will be still infighting, Boris will just be smiling to himself while they do and progress his agenda which he has a mandate on 😎

Quiet a few people on here are keyboard warriors, trying saying that face to face 😎

Will await incoming which I will ignore as it takes two to argue 😎😎

While Labour ties itself in knots infighting I don't think that Boris or anyone else is going to give them much of a thought. For the last three years they have failed to provide a credible opposition. It looks like that is going to go on for a while.

The "I'm alright Jack" is strong in this country sadly. We have a decent income & would currently benefit from the Tory policies. However, I am also disabled with 2 disabled DD. I am petrified for our future should DH & I split up or he die.

Two examples which might help your understanding, OP: First read Graeme Archer writing with evident love and pride about his husband Keith, what Labour inspired Keith to do on Thursday and why. And with that in mind read Angela Rayner's tweet from yesterday and see if you think she gets it yet.

That is an excellent article chillie

Why is it that Corbyn who lives in a very modest way, in Upper Holloway and who went to grammar school is seen as less acceptable than an old Etonian millionaire proven liar

Perceived Class and hierarchy are very ingrained in our society in a Downton Abbey kind of a way.I find it hard to articulate but at the top we obvs have the Royal family surrounded by the remains of the landed gentry. As if they're our equivalent of the American dream...stuff like the marrying a prince dream buys into this hierarchy. ( The reality is of course different- dreamy Prince Andrew - ugh)

Many or most individual politicians' parents and education don't fit this profile in reality - but there is an element of the following:

Tory: Percieved as higher up in the hierarchy - 'natural' members of the ruling class. Smarter suits. Sexual immorality, infidelity, multiple pregnant mistresses etc, are more tolerated. That behaviour is sort of expected and accepted. Probably the lying too. In the same way as shagging the scullery maid might have been ignored in the past.

Labour: Middle management. The butler/ housekeeper or the merchant delivering the groceries. They are more middle management -like one of us made good. So are held to higher standards. For example, Ed Miliband could not have had multiple younger blonde mistresses. In fact he had to ' do the right thing' and get married to his stable de facto wife before the election.

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Obviously it is not that simplistic but there's a factor of this inherited perception. There's also an element of familiarity breeds contempt. So Labour are closer in proximity to the people and show compassion so they aren't respected as much.

The Tories are more removed. A bit like the past belief that the governor isn't socialising with you, but he will look after us all and knows how to run the estate.

(Even though the governor is really out for himself and his inner circle of mates.)

It’s generally the less intelligent in any population who are given to thinking their country is ‘better’ than others - this isn’t U.K. specific - chauvinism is international. The more educated, intelligent and well travelled people are - the more aware they are that other countries are not better or worse - just different. You just don't get it do you.

Corbyn is rich.
Sorry but he is, so are most of the Labour front bench.
It is like a wolf in sheep's clothing.
It is so easy to spout all this crap about power the the people, and spend spend spend the UKs money , when your little pile of cash means it it went belly up it won't hurt you.

@lonelyplanetmum

Sorry, I really think that is rubbish. How do you explain TB (wealth ex boarding school) winning three terms. The issue is that since TB Labour leaders have been desperately trying to claim that they understand normal working class people because they are "just like them". And taking any opportunity to take pot shots their opposition based on wealth and schooling. Which really just whiffs of hypocrisy if you yourself come from privilege. "He is rich, he can't understand you, I am just like you" is such utter crap when your life is in reality far closer to the person you are criticising (all of JC's inner circle privately educated or educate their children, all have expensive homes and good pensions by normal standards, some are actually phenomenally wealthy and privileged). People don't need to be patronised and taken for fools like this. Like Ed miliband pretending he was normal with two kitchens. Truth is, people don't need their politicians to be like them and really don't care about this shit. They want their politicians to listen to them, to care about their actual concerns (not just about what politicians think they should be) and to have good policies that they think will benefit them. Labour has failed spectacularly on this front.

For me the difference was Tony Blair was more for lifting the working class up without overly demonising the rich. Wealthy people or those pretending to be as pulp say common people doesn’t wash on the front door of the working class. If you own multiple homes for profit, send your children to private school then it comes across as nothing more than hypocritical to spout socialism views.

@Boulshired

Totally agree. Each time TB won his seat, he celebrated in his local working men's club - ie he wanted to commune and celebrate with some of the people he was elected to represent. But he didn't claim that he wasn't a rich, high flying barrister with property in London. That would be crass and disingenuous.

The labour approach has been a bit "look at those Tory posh out of touch gits, only I can really understand you poor people... now I am back off to my comfortable life in Kent" - particularly offensive if your constituency is in the north I would imagine!

One of the better things about the tories is that they actually put in place MPs who really were from the relevant regions. Who really represents the people - a Tory who is local and his pitch is that he understands the people on the ground, or a labour candidate who talks a good game about the poor and marginalised but lives and works elsewhere?

There are lots of different ways to demonstrate that you care and can be a representative - sadly, labour have overwhelmingly been focused on claiming that they are not like the out of touch posho wealthy tories (whilst pretending that their own wealth is invisible). Emily Thornberry is particularly offensive.

I am happy for you to think my theory is rubbish.I can see why it would make people uncomfortable. I maintain there is at least a grain of truth in it.

The underlying reality of a politician's back ground doesn't matter as much as the perception of it. All MPs earn a salary beyond most people's reach. Its about how they are perceived, even if it is false.

The question was why is Corbyn seen as less acceptable than an old Etonian millionaire proven liar.

Perceived class and assumed financial success has something to do with it. Tories are seen as being more gentrified, part of the ruling class and more distant. Their bad behaviour is tolerated more than equivalent behaviour would be in a Labour politician. it is because they belong to a different group so what they do is up to them. Higher standards are expected of other parties because they are seen as closer in terms of hierarchy.

Boris Johnson lies practically each time his lips move, he was the sort of DH who would be destroyed on the relationships board. However in politics he clearly is respected.

It is like the grudging but loyal dutiful respect there would be in days of old for the master of a country estate who does not mix in your circles.

If a Labour politician behaved in the same way that would be unacceptable, because they are at least a bit more like 'one of us'. They are theoretically more familiar, and so held to higher standards. Its a case of familiarity breeds contempt.

The Tories are perceived as being more aloof , distant and superior and the natural ruling class.Therefore Boris Johnson's personal immorality and disingenuousness is more accepted than it would be coming from a Labour equivalent.

@lonelyplanetmum

I disagree. The point is that Boris doesn't claim not to be wealthy or to take the moral high ground. Nor, really, did Tony Blair.

The issue with the current Labour Party is that there is such a claim to the moral high ground being staked all the time, a claim to be a better person than the Tory equivalent, that is the problem and why labour candidates who use this method of campaigning get intense scrutiny. I don't care that Corbyn is wealthy in normal terms, it genuinely doesn't influence me. I care that he tries to pretend he isn't. I don't care that Boris is a shagger. I don't care that he has illegitimate children and I don't need to know how many - he refuses to talk about them, but I suspect that he pays for them. There were lots of Blairite cabinet ministers who were shaggers - people really don't care.

I care that he tries to pretend he isn't.

This is exactly what I am saying.

Tory politicians are more acceptable because they are seen as part of the ruling class. They have an aura of being aloof and more superior. Not turning up to debates for example is completely accepted. Other forms of behaviour personal and political are expected and tolerated too. A bit like in the past the master isn't socialising with you, but he's the guv'nor and knows how to run the estate.

Labour politicians are seen to be, or claim to be one of us. They are more like a promoted union rep. Like us , except they are not. So politicians, other than Tories, are held to higher standards, and are respected less. Labour are seen more in a " who do they think they are" light.

Perceived hierarchy does have something to do with it. In a similar way Trump was seen at the epitome of the American dream hierarchy.

I am not sure the left are all very good on the morality front though. Corbyn has had a few wives and lived in a manor hiouse and went to an independent fee paying prep school. They are both white old or oldish men. Corbyn is on wife number 3.

Labour will win again when they adopt more middle ground policies and start talking about issues that matter to people. Even Long-Bailey recently talking about the election disaster said tehre were issues that should be put first and named climate change (yes it is very important but if she thinks lack of focus on that lost them the election she needs to spend more time with ordinary people in Bishop Auckland who want a job and a thriving economy)

@lonelyplanetmum

Nigel Farage left his wife two years ago and is now living with a female partner that he (may - not clear) have left his wife for. The parties involved don't talk about it but it has been well reported. Nigel Farage is wealthy but more Del Boy than Toff - not a traditional member of the ruling class really. People didn't base their voting decisions at all on his private life - actually, I get the impression that what people like about him is that he is less than perfect and seems authentic. And optimistic. I couldn't vote for his politics, but he isn't straight laced and he clearly has working class appeal if you look at where his votes came from.

@lonelyplanetmum

Aaaarrrrggggghh but it is nothing to do with class. Nothing. It is the claim to moral superiority and patronising claim to understanding that people hate. British people hate hypocrisy. Bojo would be torn apart if he made a virtue of his family values, it wouldn't be ignored because he is ruling class - he doesn't make a virtue of them so no one cares. People hate the stone throwing at toffs from people who are very comfortable indeed.

It is the hypocrisy that matters, not some kind of upstairs downstairs crap.

Yes Nigel Farage is an interesting one. The reality of his status (background education at Dulwich College high MEP, radio presenter, Aaron Banks donations etc) doesn't matter. It is how he is perceived.

Is he seen by his supporters as one of the ruling class or one of "us"

No NF is seen as one of the people - a pie and a pint and a fag etc. He is seen as an Essex bloke. I think we just have to agree to disagree.

Because northern voters are far from stupid.

Remainers had a website showing them how to vote tactically to halt Brexit.

Northern voters in strong labour areas have voted Tory as a one off just because they know tactically that the Tories will get Brexit over the line. They didn't need a website, they voted tactically. They have also been disgusted that their representatives in parliament haven't represented them at all and voted against leaving because 'they know better than their ignorant electorate'.

If Labour ditch their Marxist leader and ideas then they will regain their red wall.

I think it's largely down to Brexit racism OP.

sigh>>>>. Do give up on the racist insults, along with the stupid, ignorant, knuckle dragging ones.

It's now utterly tiresome.

I think it's largely down to Brexit racism OP.

It's that kind of attitude that helped.

The main reason popping up is Corbyn then Brexit, now you can whatabout outside sources, right wing MSM, not listening to him, misunderstood that he was actually involved with the peace process etc etc, or actually listen that he was out of touch.

The class thing does come into it, as the largely middle class remain seats thought they could just dictate to the northern labour seats what they should be concerned about, it's especially evident that as soon as the northern labour heartlands vote differently than expected the mask from the middle class Labour Remainers slips, and bam, suddenly they are all thick, racists (after repeatedly using this same tactic for 2 years).

People said after the Ref that labour where split, the metropolitan side just thought they could ignore the issues because they always vote for a red rosette on a donkey.

The outpouring of utter hate and derision from labour supporters since Thursday shows Orwell was all those years ago.

The 'middle' class Labour supporters think they are for the working class, just as long as they do not rear their ugly opinions. Labour's front bench didn't help that, nor did the rhetoric since before 2015. The writing has been on the wall for quite a while, labour refused to meet it head on

The question was why is Corbyn seen as less acceptable than an old Etonian millionaire proven liar.
It's optics. Boris went to the Welsh Winter Fair and was pictured 'trimming' a sheep. He was ridiculed on here for it. Jokes about sheep shagger etc. He careered across a farm yard holding a bull. That would have gone down well with farmers. He went to the floods and was harangued by the people there but he didn't run away from them. He didn't care if he made a fool of himself. I know it's all an act but I think he actually likes people.
Corbyn gets fired up when speaking at his rallies. But generally he looks a right po faced old misery.