To think that Turkeys Voted for Christmas?

[StormzysHat]

NC. This could appear goady but honestly it's a genuine confusion to me.

According to what we are led to believe by the media / some people on MN, "northerners" (as a generic group) voted for Conservatives because they are disadvantaged and fed up with the north south divide among other reasons.

How come disadvantaged Londoners voted Labour? I work in support sector and many people in my care will be in shelters this Christmas, and others rely on food banks. They were saddened and disheartened by Labour's loss and felt the Conservatives in no way represent them. This is on top of the Tory devised hostile environment and Windrush scandal making peoples' lives hell.

I understand that people are / have been pissed off and wanted to have their voices heard. But WHY would the very communities ravaged by the Tories in the 80's vote for them?

Why is it that Corbyn who lives in a very modest way, in Upper Holloway and who went to grammar school is seen as less acceptable than an old Etonian millionaire proven liar? How can Boris Jonson be seen as someone who can help the north south divide or to champion the working class FFS??

I completely accept Corbyn's leadership has been poor and don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan. BUT, given the alternative, I can't understand HOW working class people could vote for Johnson?

AIBU to think the turkeys just voted for Christmas?

Patriotism is a load of bollocks.

However, the working class provide the cannon fodder for the army so they have to believe in their country. If they didn't, all of that pain and suffering would have been for nothing and that is too heartbreaking to contemplate. It's not a good thing, but it's perfectly understandable.

But come on @Jillyhilly he IS racist! "watermelon smiles" "Piccannies"???

I mean, what about British POC in this debate? Saying that "we" [the working class] don't wish to be reminded of the atrocious things this country of done is the essence of privilege. I assume this means 'some white people'. What about BAME working class or otherwise? Why is this country not doing what many other liberal nations have done and acknowledging that the foundations of our wealth and power were built on slavery? How could this be a bad thing? Talk about uniting people. No individuals alive today have to take personal responsibility for what people did years ago, but the state can take steps to right the wings by ensuring our education system tells the whole story and includes POC for example, by celebrating their significant contribution to the allies campaigns in the world wars, as one example. I don't see how this takes anything away from anyone's sense of patriarchy. Surely it would make one feel MORE inclined to feel patriotic as the country would be doing the right thing and helping people feel included.

that should have been "right the wrongs" obvs

@StormzysHat

You make a beautifully articulated case for social justice, inclusivity, rewriting colonial cultural history. And I agree with you- they are fine aspirations. But the thread is the unfortunate phrased Turkeys for Christmas. And the working class people of colour mainly stayed loyal to labour. The red wall hung on in inner cities and London and in heavily Asian areas like Rochdale, Oldham and Bradford.

It was the white working class that deserted Corbyn so we need to understand why they felt so alienated form his message. And that means accepting some unpalatable truths even if they are not aligned with the parties thinking.

@Hobbesmanc That's very depressing.

And the working class people of colour mainly stayed loyal to labour.

Where are you seeing this data, I didn't think it had been broken down to that level yet?

@Stormzyshat

Awww sorry. I just think that if we want a realistic chance of getting a centre left government back in with realistic economic policies and a framework of social justice, Labour need to reconnect with their core voter base. And that means looking at embracing a broad church and not dismissing peoples views on immigration as bigotry.

My Tory voting siblings are fed up with the ' liberal / Metropolitan elite' telling us what to do! I don't agree entirely with this view myself, but it is a bit galling when some celebs pitch in with their pennies worth and they don't even live in this country or come across as patronising. They are entitled to do this of course, but it all added to the mix (and not in a good way. )
This added to Corbyn's views on brexit and the giveaways he promised ( how will they pay for it?) made them go for Boris.

@Justanotherlurker just looking at the constituencys that stayed red. Rochdale, Bradford, Luton, Slough- all much more diverse demographics, Plus inner city London, Brum and Manchester

The staunch hard old labour seats that fell- Darlington, Wrexham, Blthye Valley, Leigh are less ethinically mixed. Anyone who canvassed in or knows these former Labour areas knows that immigration (not necessarily race) drove Brexit decsions- and Brexit drove voting

I voted Labour in 2017. I was a passionate Remainer who thought Labour would do something - anything - about stopping Brexit. I also didn’t know much about Corbyn and was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

This time around I voted Tory. Do you have any interest in knowing why, or do you just assume that I’m a thick racist who can’t understand nuance?

How do you expect anyone to respond to this? You were a passionate remainer two years ago and now you’ve voted for the only party where Brexit is an absolute certainty?

What if instead of specially designed turkey pencils, the turkey just pecks a hole in one of the boxes? Would that count as indicating a preferance?

@Mysterian - dangerous as we then get back to the hanging chads and pregnant chads of the Bush election in 2000

@GnomeDePlume - I doubt that'll be an issue. Turkeys are way smarter than

@fortunatelynot

read about socialism and its effects and the effects on societies in the past who have lived under socialist ideologies.

Like successful places like Sweden? Are you saying Capitalism is a success? Really? The UK or the western world, so to speak, has never actually experienced true socialism, so we don't know the effects. We do know, that capitalism does not work, and never works where ever it has been tried.

Listen to LABOUR MPS who have been in the news angrily denouncing their own leader.
Like the conservatives who angrily denounced Johnson, you mean? You act like Labour are the only party who has experienced internal division. We both know that's not true, so stop being so disingenuous.

It’s one view point but since posters keep mentioning Nordic countries I was interested in reading more.

Nordic countries are not socialist

‘It is certainly true that Sweden, Norway, Finland, and Denmark are notable economic successes. What is false is that these countries are particularly socialist.
Perhaps a better name for what the Nordic countries practice would be compassionate capitalism.’

And I know you need to consider the position of the author but I found it interesting nonetheless.

@Hobbesmanc
The majority of constituencies in the north east actually held their labour seats. Newcastle, Sunderland, Hartlepool, Middlesbrough to name a few.
None of them particularly diverse and Newcastle being the only one of those that voted remain.

We’re barking up the wrong tree by generalising about entire areas & populations.

I was a definite remainer at the time of the referendum. In the intervening years fatigue has crept in. I now just want Brexit done. I dont want more years of back and forth between parliament and the EU arguing the toss about what to argue the toss about. I know that we will now move on to negotiating trade deals.

For me a hung parliament would have been the worst of all possible worlds. Too much shady dealing with minority political groups to get votes through.

Corbyn didnt just fail at the election, he has failed in opposition. Lack of commitment or direction on Brexit made the Labour party look woolly and uncommitted to any policy.

Again, another with the hypothetical's of knowing what this government will or won't do.

So you're saying you didn't weigh up what Labour hypothetically will or won't do if they had won? Seriously? Because hypotheticals is all we have at the moment, no matter the side. @Justanotherlurker

@crispysausagerolls I am in the top 0.5% I know the people I am talking about, I know how hard they work, how much they give and what they do.

Are you serious? Sitting in board room meetings in between smoking cigars and nice galas is 'hard work'? You are deeply insulting. Hard work is working in a factory. Piece work. That is hard work. The rich get rich off the sweat of actual workers.

@Expo if these companies didn't have WORKERS (mostly underpaid) doing the work for them, they wouldn't have the money to pay taxes. So it cancels it out. A boss can't achieve all the work and success on their own. It takes WORKERS who do the work.

@Expo They are getting it from international markets. Omg
Yes, so workers don't have anything to do with it. It is just some spoiled rich kid playing at gambling on the stock market. Not the people on the floor of their factories, businesses, etc.

I have just had an email from Gina Miller. She and her team seem to have grasped what went wrong for Labour if the opinions on this thread are anything to go by. She says the election result was largely due to: "deep-seated fears about the patriotism, economic security, national safety and competency of a Corbyn-led government, and a dislike of both Jo Swinson and her election campaign"

She is quite pragmatic and advises: "In the absence of a robust, effective – and, for the time being, credible – parliamentary opposition, we should encourage Mr Johnson to use both his heart and his head to manage the competing and conflicting hopes and aspirations of different groups of voters in a thoughtful and pragmatic way. This also means harnessing the personal credibility and franchises of his cohort of newly-elected MPs in northern seats, in order that our great country can move forward together, harmoniously and purposefully." Quite a positive message.

But she rightly warns (in relation to page 48 of the manifesto): "With the principal opposition parties in disarray, we must stay vigilant to ensure our progressive politics and the open, tolerance that makes Britain a beacon of democracy the world over, are not placed at risk.

We must all stand ready to speak out if ever this newly-elected majority government threatens to abuse the trust that voters have given it or uses its parliamentary strength to railroad legislation through Parliament that poses a threat to our communities and way of life."

@Expo But I am genuinely interested where @thefluffysideofgrey thinks the rich are getting their money to pay UK taxes.
Omg. Um, it is very simple. People they hire do the WORK for them, which earns the company profit. The company turns a profit, because of the WORK that people on the shop floor do. THAT, is where they get the money from. smh

Corbyn has not helped but I believe Labour was always heading to this point. Whilst Labour supporters have leaned left for a fairer economy the party have took for granted they would be as left with culture/society. It’s either you are with us completely or you are no better than a Tory. People started voting UKIP and now Tory.