To think that Turkeys Voted for Christmas?

[StormzysHat]

NC. This could appear goady but honestly it's a genuine confusion to me.

According to what we are led to believe by the media / some people on MN, "northerners" (as a generic group) voted for Conservatives because they are disadvantaged and fed up with the north south divide among other reasons.

How come disadvantaged Londoners voted Labour? I work in support sector and many people in my care will be in shelters this Christmas, and others rely on food banks. They were saddened and disheartened by Labour's loss and felt the Conservatives in no way represent them. This is on top of the Tory devised hostile environment and Windrush scandal making peoples' lives hell.

I understand that people are / have been pissed off and wanted to have their voices heard. But WHY would the very communities ravaged by the Tories in the 80's vote for them?

Why is it that Corbyn who lives in a very modest way, in Upper Holloway and who went to grammar school is seen as less acceptable than an old Etonian millionaire proven liar? How can Boris Jonson be seen as someone who can help the north south divide or to champion the working class FFS??

I completely accept Corbyn's leadership has been poor and don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan. BUT, given the alternative, I can't understand HOW working class people could vote for Johnson?

AIBU to think the turkeys just voted for Christmas?

No OP I think a hung parliament would have been dreadful. Parliament would have remained obsessed with Brexit and JC would have taken it as a sign that his policies were fine and absolutely feasible.

With a hung parliament we would be stuck where we were.

Labour under Corbyn exceeded everyone’s expectations in the 2017 election

Oh lets be honest here. This was in the wake of Corbyn making leader to the popping of Tory champagne corks. The actual expectations generally were rock bottom. Three other elections have seen Labour go backward (including this last disaster).

I don't think Corbyn is unlikeable or standoffish (although its some years since I last met him) but he is an idealogue, he lacks leadership skills, he is thin skinned and unable to admit when he is wrong. John McDonnell has consistently been a better performer if you want someone from that section of the party.

As I said upthread. If Labour continues on teh path of "its all the evil $WHOEVER" and "we got it right, you just didn't understand us" then its ten years of Johnson we face, not five.

@thefluffysideofgrey I moved to Manchester at 18. I lived in Manchester south constituency for thirty years now - the labour vote here increased- its an affluent elite middle class bubble and I realise that I live in a social media echo chamber. Labour supporters in Didsbury and Islington have nothing in common with those in Stockton and Blythe Valley. Yet the Leadership and much on momentum are derived from the chattering classes not the left behind white working class

@Hobbesmanc and @StormzysHat

Very thoughtful responses on this thread, thank you.

I would add to this Labour's unique problem of having a majority of constituencies that voted Leave, combined with a majority of supporters who voted Remain.

This is exactly the talking point briefed by Labour leadership after the election.

It doesn't really hold water because the numbers were worked out by different people - hundreds of times they fed back by MPs, grass roots activists and probably random members that if Labour lost leave voters annihilation was likely. The same was true but to a lesser extent (in terms of measurable numbers) regarding Corbyn.

The real political picture here is that they decided to tie themselves to their position on both of these matters and tell people the disabled would be killed and the NHS privatised if they didn't accept it.

If I were a Labour voter that really believed these things I would be asking myself why the Labour leadership staked so many lives on its own grip on power and on a Brexit position that came from somewhere other than Jeremy Corbyn.

That's what I'd be pondering, because if you believe their narrative, then they just intentionally gambled thousands of lives and the NHS for these things and lost.

Maybe, op, not everyone is obsessed by class like you.
Do you always judge people by their background above everything else?

I would add to this Labour's unique problem of having a majority of constituencies that voted Leave, combined with a majority of supporters who voted Remain.

I'd argue that this is a huge miscalculation. Labour Membership, swelled through the undeniably effective Momentum membership drive, may have been more remain but in labour heartlands, core voters who may not ever have joined the party , were much more exit.

@StormzysHat, yes, I believe that many in those areas are socially conservative and feel as thought their views and ideas have been cast aside by the educated elite over the decades.

There are huge misconceptions about prosperity, opportunity and attitudes amongst the British white working class. Labour fell into the same old trap that Ed Miliband did in 2015 of talking endlessly about billionaires, food bank users and zero hours contracts as though there was nothing in between. There is - and they feel politically ignored. These are not people for whom policies about rail season tickets mean anything. They don’t care about education policies where we apologise for the sins of our colonial past.

If you want to know why the white working class voted tory then I’d suggest you read The Road to Somewhere by David Goodhart. You may not agree with all of it (I don’t) but it is a very good start to understanding what has happened.

@Dapplegrey not sure how I've "obsessed" about class on this thread, other than discussing the views of my working class London 'bubble' and asking for comparison with views of working class voters in red wall constituencies.

@ReadtheSmallPrint interesting thank you. I can appreciate all of what you've said there, and it makes sense. The only bit I struggle with is why / how apologising for or acknowledging our colonial past would be a problem for some people.

Because for a lot of people dealing with the present is tough enough without giving the headspace to the past which can't be changed anyway.

Why is it that Corbyn who lives in a very modest way, in Upper Holloway and who went to grammar school is seen as less acceptable than an old Etonian millionaire proven liar?

Op - Did you also judge Tony Blair for going to public school?

@StormzysHat

They don't want to be told about the terrible things we did.

Working class people want to be patriotic. It's a trope that has ran through all of this debate but nobody will acknowledge. This can lead to racism and the blaming of the other.

Nobody will touch that debate, hence a man who laughs at Muslim women getting voted in.

This country is sliding to the right and nobody wants to talk about it.

Those of us who are centre leftish need to understand the real reasons for Labour's loss properly to inform the election of the next leader

Do you have any authority in the party, Because right now they are scrabbling about trying to blame everyone and anyone but themselves.

From the media to each other. I can't remember seeing anything like it, or so unedifying. At least McDonnell., tried to take the blame, he said it's my fault, even though patently it's not wholly his fault, but yes he carries some of it.

Labour need to look to themselves. They need to try to understand what people are telling them about Corbyn, Abbott etc and their distrust of them and why, they need to understand that the policies people fundamentally don't agree with because of concern over financing it or even feasibility, they need to properly tackle the anti semitism that is rife and that people hate, and they need to understand that their online campaign to bring in voters was appalling, with campaigners viciously abusing people as a way to try to get votes, telling them people were dying because of them that they were racist, homophobes, murderers.

The whole thing is a mess, they need to accept personal responsibility and not spend their time trying to find scape goats to blame, and attacking each other and everyone who didn't vote for them.

Working class people want to be patriotic. It's a trope that has ran through all of this debate but nobody will acknowledge. This can lead to racism and the blaming of the other.

Yes, I agree that pride in country, as well as local community and family, are working class values. The problem is that the left immediately assumes and sees racism in these values. There is nothing wrong with liking your country, being proud of it, liking being British and wanting to admit it. Or feeling that our culture is special and needs to be protected. Or even thinking, god forbid, that your country is a bit better than other countries. These things do not make you racist, but the left seem unable to make the distinction between the two.

I think part of Boris’ appeal is that he actually seems to like Britain and British people, to appreciate our history and our culture, and he doesn’t automatically assume that we’re all a bunch of racists who have to be re-educated about our terrible racist history. I never got that feeling from Corbyn and the left who seem to be on a crusade to uncover and root out what they see as thought-crime racism in an extremely unpleasant way.

I’m quite sure Turkey pencils have the potential to be the next Penis Beaker or Naice Ham.

@jillyhilly

Really insightful post. The events that people seized on around Corbyn were things like the Cenotaph and the queens speech. Inconsequential things to a Metropolitan clique but things that still resonate with traditional labour working class. Its totally counter intuitive not to accept that racism isn't a key vote driver and that's got to be the parties major challenge- how to con tinue with a platform based on equality, diversity, inclusion and multi culturalism - without further alienating core demographic.

The problem with the working class “pride in country” sentiment as Jilly describes, is that this is the very thing the so-called “liberal elite” are ashamed of. In their view, it’s the epitome of everything that’s wrong with Britain. They just think England flags in windows or in white vans; England tattoos and a general moronic attitude that makes the rest of the country ashamed to be British.

Yes, I agree that pride in country, as well as local community and family, are working class values. The problem is that the left immediately assumes and sees racism in these values. There is nothing wrong with liking your country, being proud of it, liking being British and wanting to admit it. Or feeling that our culture is special and needs to be protected. Or even thinking, god forbid, that your country is a bit better than other countries.

I don’t think the left see racism more just twattery. I don’t think pride in country is a class thing it’s more a mentality - cf Farage.

What do you feel is ‘special’ about our ‘culture’ that needs to be protected?

It’s generally the less intelligent in any population who are given to thinking their country is ‘better’ than others - this isn’t U.K. specific - chauvinism is international. The more educated, intelligent and well travelled people are - the more aware they are that other countries are not better or worse - just different.

@cosima1

Exactly and I think that the elite took the so called red wall for granted. There is cultural pride that can easily tip nationalistic jingoism and they resent being sneered at by people like Emily Thornberry. To outsiders its incomprehensible that the people of Sunderland voted to leave despite the fact that Nissan is the conerstone of the economy. Its beyond belief that people in the poorest constituencies like Leigh or Middlesborough voted Tory, after all the austerity cuts they ensure

But they did. - patriotism, nationalism, xenophobia, populism. Label it as you see fit- but don't ignore it Labour at your peril.

If Boris presses ahead with hard Brexit and Sunderland loses Nissan - where will that leave Mackem ‘cultural pride’?

Pride doesn’t put food on the table when you have no job.

Pride doesn’t put food on the table when you have no job.

It’s not a binary choice, Tatiana.

Well it is if Nissan fucks off.