To think that Turkeys Voted for Christmas?

[StormzysHat]

NC. This could appear goady but honestly it's a genuine confusion to me.

According to what we are led to believe by the media / some people on MN, "northerners" (as a generic group) voted for Conservatives because they are disadvantaged and fed up with the north south divide among other reasons.

How come disadvantaged Londoners voted Labour? I work in support sector and many people in my care will be in shelters this Christmas, and others rely on food banks. They were saddened and disheartened by Labour's loss and felt the Conservatives in no way represent them. This is on top of the Tory devised hostile environment and Windrush scandal making peoples' lives hell.

I understand that people are / have been pissed off and wanted to have their voices heard. But WHY would the very communities ravaged by the Tories in the 80's vote for them?

Why is it that Corbyn who lives in a very modest way, in Upper Holloway and who went to grammar school is seen as less acceptable than an old Etonian millionaire proven liar? How can Boris Jonson be seen as someone who can help the north south divide or to champion the working class FFS??

I completely accept Corbyn's leadership has been poor and don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan. BUT, given the alternative, I can't understand HOW working class people could vote for Johnson?

AIBU to think the turkeys just voted for Christmas?

There are reasons why they voted and I'm trying to understand those. Labour need to understand those reasons if we are actually going to improve things

With all due respect, this is the problem with the Labour Party. The people who have now somehow made it to the top have no idea what the party is supposed to stand for and what the general requirements of its voter base actually are and no sense whatsoever of how to help the most vulnerable in society. It's why they had a manifesto that promised £100s of billions for free broadband and nationalising whatever Corbyn fancied but didn't eg stick another £20 on top of JSA. It's so beyond their experience and understanding. It's also why protestations of good intentions ring so hollow. A middle-class, privileged with list. At least they could bask in the glory of saving a grand on their train ticket - the buses are full of min-wage workers going to crappy jobs to ease the lives of the rich and they are utterly invisible.

The answer? If you're posh, leave the Labour leadership. You don't know what's best, you just think you do from a combination of overconfidence in your unearned, undeserved privilege, authoritarianism, selfishness, expectation of deference because you know so much better and what can only be plain stupidity. Leave it to the people with a clue. It's meant to be our party after all. We didn't want or need the infiltration.

I say that as someone who would never vote for the Tories anyway. I spoiled my ballot because of the danger Labour and LibDems posed to women. The issue absolutely will have cost seats.

Authoritarian not authoritatively!
Johnson May lie but he isn’t going to destroy my grammar

Corbyn is a hippy (everyone hates hippies) and Boris makes people laugh.

There really isn't much more to it. Seriously.

I am remain, I voted Labour. But also tired of the sneering from labour voters in the south, especially London labour voters that are bloody clueless since many of them have never travelled further north than Watford. Well if you don't know why the turkeys are voting for Christmas, go there and find out, go and live there, oh no why's that? No jobs, no opportunities, poor schools, poor transport. New Labour delivered precisely naff all. They don't want free broadband, they want investment and development. Yes, they have abandoned the liberal elite in London, you're on your own now, you can't rely on northern votes to deliver your neo-liberal utopia which serves London and only London.

@MakeItRain I do completely agree with that.

What I've learned from this thread (the sensible responses) is that the negatives about Corbyn trumped the negatives about Johnson in the eyes of many who voted Tory. They felt Johnson was a better bet than Corbyn. For me, the anti-semitism was handled appallingly by Corbyn- and he rightly lost votes. But I don't believe the man himself was / is racist. Johnson on the other hand actively speaks these atrocious things and everyone just thinks he's a cuddly clown.

So for me, I can't align myself with the decision to overlook his racist, sexist and homophobic views. You are right that the Tory voters don't seem to address it. This is one area which I can't reconcile. Even though I'm making an effort to understand the POV of Tory voters, this I'll never understand.

YANBU, but I would describe them as Scorpions, as they don’t yet realize that they’ve stung themselves to death.

Interesting take on Nandy @tellmetruth4. Not sure if there's anyone in the current line up who fits that bill? Yvette Cooper perhaps?

But WHY would the very communities ravaged by the Tories in the 80's vote for them?

What is being forgotten here is that the Tories did not receive that many more votes than they did in 2017. It was in the 13 millions in both elections.

Northern cap-doffers did not actually turn out in markedly increased numbers to vote for a floppy-haired old Etonian.

Instead, the Labour vote collapsed.

So the question in the OP is not the correct one to be asking.

The question is "not what is wrong with the turkeys people?", it's "what's wrong with Labour?"

@Clavinova can firmly I point out that "ethnic minorities in London" and "British" are not usually two different things.

Look at Hungary - where we are heading ...

The comedy just keeps going, your style of posting must have turned so many over to Labour....

@Harpingon whose consensus is that? Not here.

The governments own yellowhammer docs stated that the poorest communities would be disproportionately hardest hit by Brexit.

Yes this is very interesting. Why do people think working class conservative voters overlooked this? Did the information just not land in the campaign because the Tories succeeded in hiding it so well and Labour failed to draw enough attention to it?

Not that this is a political forum but...

I've obviously taken into consideration what I consider to be the following swaying points on the two main parties.

On the one hand the Conservative Boris Johnson is a bit of a rascal with the ladies and can sometimes bend the truth a bit, he’s also a bit posh.

And on the other hand..

Labours Jeremy Corbyn Invited two IRA members to parliament two weeks after the Brighton bombing.
Attended Bloody Sunday commemoration with bomber Brendan McKenna.
Attended meeting with Provisional IRA member Raymond McCartney.
Hosted IRA linked Mitchell McLaughlin in parliament.
Spoke alongside IRA terrorist Martina Anderson.
Attended Sinn Fein dinner with IRA bomber Gerry Kelly.
Chaired Irish republican event with IRA bomber Brendan MacFarlane.
Attended Bobby Sands commemoration honouring IRA terrorists.
Stood in minute’s silence for IRA gunmen shot dead by the SAS.
Refused to condemn the IRA in Sky News interview.
Refused to condemn the IRA on Question Time.
Refused to condemn IRA violence in BBC radio interview.
Signed EDM after IRA Poppy massacre massacre blaming Britain for the deaths.
Arrested while protesting in support of Brighton bomber’s co-defendants.
Lobbied government to improve visiting conditions for IRA killers.
Attended Irish republican event calling for armed conflict against Britain.
Hired suspected IRA man Ronan Bennett as a parliamentary assistant.
Hired another aide closely linked to several convicted IRA terrorists.
Heavily involved with IRA sympathising newspaper London Labour Briefing.
Put up £20,000 bail money for IRA terror suspect Roisin McAliskey.
Didn’t support IRA ceasefire.
Said Hamas and Hezbollah are his “friends“.
Called for Hamas to be removed from terror banned list.
Called Hamas “serious and hard-working“.
Attended wreath-laying at grave of Munich massacre terrorist.
Attended conference with Hamas and PFLP.
Photographed smiling with Hezbollah flag.
Attended rally with Hezbollah and Al-Muhajiroun.
Repeatedly shared platforms with PFLP plane hijacker.
Hired aide who praised Hamas’ “spirit of resistance“.
Accepted £20,000 for state TV channel of terror-sponsoring Iranian regime.
Opposed banning Britons from travelling to Syria to fight for ISIS.
Defended rights of fighters returning from Syria.
Said ISIS supporters should not be prosecuted.
Compared fighters returning from Syria to Nelson Mandela.
Said the death of Osama Bin Laden was a “tragedy“.
Wouldn’t sanction drone strike to kill ISIS leader.
Voted to allow ISIS fighters to return from Syria.
Opposed shoot to kill.
Attended event organised by terrorist sympathising IHRC.
Signed letter defending Lockerbie bombing suspects.
Wrote letter in support of conman accused of fundraising for ISIS.
Spoke of “friendship” with Mo Kozbar, who called for destruction of Israel.
Attended event with Abdullah Djaballah, who called for holy war against UK.
Called drone strikes against terrorists “obscene”.
Boasted about “opposing anti-terror legislation”.
Said laws banning jihadis from returning to Britain are “strange”.
Accepted £5,000 donation from terror supporter Ted Honderich.
Accepted £2,800 trip to Gaza from banned Islamist organisation Interpal.
Called Ibrahim Hewitt, extremist and chair of Interpal, a “very good friend”.
Accepted two more trips from the pro-Hamas group PRC.
Speaker at conference hosted by pro-Hamas group MEMO.
Met Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh several times.
Hosted meeting with Mousa Abu Maria of banned group Islamic Jihad.
Patron of Palestine Solidarity Campaign – marches attended by Hezbollah.
Compared Israel to ISIS, Hamas, Hezbollah and al-Qaeda.
Said we should not make “value judgements” about Britons who fight for ISIS.
Received endorsement from Hamas.
Attended event with Islamic extremist Suliman Gani.
Chaired Stop the War, who praised “internationalism and solidarity” of ISIS.
Praised Raed Salah, who was jailed for inciting violence in Israel.
Signed letter defending jihadist advocacy group Cage.
Met Dyab Jahjah, who praised the killing of British soldiers.
Shared platform with representative of extremist cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.
Compared ISIS to US military in interview on Russia Today.
Opposed proscription of Hizb ut-Tahrir.
Attended conference which called on Iraqis to kill British soldiers.
Attended Al-Quds Day demonstration in support of destruction of Israel.
Supported Hamas and ISIS-linked Viva Palestina group.
Attended protest with Islamic extremist Moazzam Begg.
Made the “case for Iran” at event hosted by Khomeinist group.
Photographed smiling with Azzam Tamimi, who backed suicide bombings.
Photographed with Abdel Atwan, who sympathised with attacks on US troops.
Said Hamas should “have tea with the Queen”.
Attended ‘Meet the Resistance’ event with Hezbollah MP Hussein El Haj.
Attended event with Haifa Zangana, who praised Palestinian “mujahideen”.
Defended the infamous anti-Semitic Hamas supporter Stephen Sizer.
Attended event with pro-Hamas and Hezbollah group Naturei Karta.
Backed Holocaust denying anti-Zionist extremist Paul Eisen.
Photographed with Abdul Raoof Al Shayeb, later jailed for terror offences.
Mocked “anti-terror hysteria” while opposing powers for security services.
Named on speakers list for conference with Hamas sympathiser Ismail Patel.
Criticised drone strike that killed Jihadi John.
Said the 7/7 bombers had been denied “hope and opportunity”.
Said 9/11 was “manipulated” to make it look like bin Laden was responsible.
Failed to unequivocally condemn the 9/11 attacks.
Called Columbian terror group M-19 “comrades”.
Blamed beheading of Alan Henning on Britain.
Gave speech in support of Gaddafi regime.
Signed EDM spinning for Slobodan Milosevic.
Blamed Tunisia terror attack on “austerity”.
Voted against banning support for the IRA.
Voted against the Prevention of Terrorism Act three times during the Troubles.
Voted against emergency counter-terror laws after 9/11.
Voted against stricter punishments for being a member of a terror group.
Voted against criminalising the encouragement of terrorism.
Voted against banning al-Qaeda.
Voted against outlawing the glorification of terror.
Voted against control orders.
Voted against increased funding for the security services to combat terrorism.

So it’s a tricky one really...

Firstly, I didn't vote for him but I don't think Boris is particularly racist or homophobic in reality. He was a very well paid journalist who got paid to be flamboyant with his words and has said some stupid things, but I don't actually think he believes them. The northern MPs who were elected are far younger and more diverse than is traditional - including a higher than average proportion of gay MPs. The oft quoted letterbox remarks actually appeared in an article that said that we shouldn't ban the burka, even if it was not to his personal taste. A lot of what he has said is intended as light ridicule and I think a lot of people can see that.

By contrast, I am afraid that JC is anti Semitic. His actions over a large number of years suggest that he is happy to share a platform with people who hate Jewish people. There is a lot of talk about being anti-Zionist not anti Semitic, but what most people who say that mean is not "I disagree fundamentally with some of the Israeli government's policies" but "Israel shouldn't exist and we should always side with any of its enemies, however terrible". The equivalent to JC sharing a platform with some of the people spreading hate against the west and Jewish people (EVEN though JC didn't say these things himself) is Boris going on an EDL March with Tommy Robinson. And he clearly hasn't. His slow reaction on anti semitism just goes to show that Jewish people don't matter to him.

@alltheprettyseahorses
With respect I think you're over simplifying it and doing what you presumably criticise some Labour voters of doing. I'm not posh and not are my friends or the people I worked with but many of them are baffled. I do t think it's as simple as you suggest. I also think this country is so fragmented right now that issues being faced by a working class voter in, say, Tower Hamlets are completely different to a working class voter in Redcar or another in St Ives.

@RoRosmama

Ooo you've learnt to do copy and paste on your phone!

many of them have never travelled further north than Watford.

Until we stop trotting our these negative simplistic stereotypes on both sides we are not going to move forward. Ffs I don't know any Londoners who haven't travelled further than Watford apart from a couple of immigrants who have only lived here a year or so. It's just as bad as saying all northerners are racist.

Ok, so why did Liverpool where the Sun newspaper isn’t bought, still strongly support Labour?

@GCacademic very good point

@thefluffysideofgrey sure have! I'm a clever girl.

@RoRosmama Tony Blair and Mo Mowlam broke bread with similar types. It's what you have to do if you want to broker peace.

With Corbyn it’s not just his views but that of the machine behind him. Even if he had quit just before the election it would of been another momentum candidate. The accusations would of still been there. Boris seems to get away with more as he removed himself slightly from the party. It is also difficult to highlight Boris faults as the opposition when you know it’s going to come back. The fact that a country had to vote for the worst of two evils is similar to Trump and Clinton. The opposition is just not good enough.

What I've yet to see is anyone explaining how Boris gets away with his vile comments (calling gay men "bumboys", referring to children of single mothers "ill-raised, aggressive and ignorant", Muslim women looking like "bank robbers" and "letterboxes", black people "flag waving picaninnies", "oriental people have bigger brains and higher iq's, black people are at the other pole", women go to university to "find men to marry"...... I mean the list goes on and on. )
I don't agree with Boris's statements. They're crass, offensive and intended to cause controversy. They're intended to offend the bien pensents people . The Muslim Tory who's just been voted in was asked by Kathy Newman on CH4 about this anti Muslim rhetoric and he said it was a load of old nonsense.
www.facebook.com/watch/?v=459510528082478

@thetoddleratemyhomework

This is the most succinct and elegant response to all the oft-quoted and out of context “racist” comments attributed to Boris.

@Boulshired I fear you've hit the nail on the head.