To still like Jeremy Corbyn?

[malificent7]

I think it's right that he stepped down as the public clearly didn't get him...hated him even but i think he stands for the good in society. I actually think he is correctvto call out Israel for being bastards to Palestine and whilst ge apparently supports terroism ( ira), i think he is a negotiator ...the UK shafted Ireland hugely and the IRA is a consequence of that. We need people to negotiate with them.
I slso think remaining neutral on Brexit was the right thing to do but respecting the will of the people.

I don't hate Boris but he has got away with a lot. He has said many racist slurs, he hates women, he has multiple illegitimate children yet blames women, he switched sides re Brexit, oh and he's happy to trade with people like Saudi Arabia who have awful human rights. But apparently Jeremy is the bad one.

MidnightCircus

But that ignores the huge issue of Brexit AND the claimed issue of Corbyn’s personal lack of appeal. We can’t have this all ways. If the manifesto was the main issue, Corbyn’a character and Brexit can’t have been that relevant. But we know those things were factors, so it can’t just be the manifesto. It’s my belief that in five years similar policies could garner far more support.

As for not losing many votes to the conservatives, we have a first past the post system in this country, and they lost, I think, 51 seats to the conservatives. That's what counts.

Of course it counts. But that doesn’t mean there is no popular support for more progressive policies, as you say.

And Johnson has always been a hugely popular politician, because he cultivates a populist image and panders to the worst instincts of many of the voters. He was always going to be hard to beat at the ballot box. Whether he can govern is a different question. We will see.

Labour could win without Corbyn, with Momentum, the right person as leader and dialling down the economy busting promises. Centre left. It’s not that hard. Well it is because Labour are so stubborn right now.

I actually laughed when I heard about the four day week. It makes absolutely no sense at all. If you pay people the same amount for doing 20% less, everything, absilutely everything, is going to cost more. And it would be farcical in public services, can you imagine the waiting list increases in the NHS?

MarshaBradyo

I agree. But I don’t think they need to go that far towards the centre. Once Brexit is no longer a factor and we get 18 months into a majority Conservative administration I think we will see a very different set of views emerging.

AuntSpiker

It depends on how you do it. You don’t do it all at once and you pilot it in different sectors and areas first. There is increasing evidence that productivity doesn’t change significantly with that sort of reduction in hours, because people tend to do more in the available time. We would have to see.

You keep believing that if you want. But it won't get a Labour government elected.

I meant without Momentum there!

I’d suggest dropping the four day week, nationalisation and free broadband to start with.

The U.K. is a service economy, a four day week would be crazy in a global competitive setting.

AuntSpiker

I didn’t say it would. I support it personally but it’s not a non-negotiable element of a manifesto for me.

What? Of course Brexit and Corbyn can also be a factor even though the manifesto was. That's what we are trying to tell Labour voters. Its all three

MarshaBradyo

But people on the right will always suggest greater globalisation, privatisation, longer hours et al. That’s not progressive politics. We need to put people first, and that might mean not competing quite so much, not producing quite so much.

MidnightCircus

To a certain extent, of course. Some people will have disagreed most with the policies, others will have liked the policies but not liked Corbyn, others will have voted with borders and immigration at the top of their minds. That doesn’t mean we have to rip up the whole of the progressive left and start again. There is work to be done, of course.

Church I’m centre left so not up for completely right (which with a weak opposition will get worse).

I voted remain so let’s take the working directive. Fine to have that but also fine for people to sign out of it in some competitive sectors if they personally choose to. They are rewarded of course and that’s their choice.

A four day week undermines the key strength of the U.K. - the service sector.

So how would it work in manufacturing for example, where production isnt dependent on how hard people work, but on machinery? If equipment is only running 4 days a week, not 5, production is reduced by 20% or you have to take on staff to cover the missing 20% of production. Both cost huge amounts.

How would it work in construction? Would a bricklayer lay 20% more bricks each week? How would he do that? What about the lorry driver delivering the supplies to the building site? How would the logistics company deliver the bricks on the 5th day when that lorry driver is off? How can a logistics company with a set number of lorries and the EWTD to meet, increase production by 20% Drive faster?

Inflation world rise hugely, and that definitely isn't good for families.

As for public services, it's complete nonsense and would never work. Sorry, the radiographer can't do your radiotherapy tomorrow, she only works 4 days now. There's a shortage of skilled NHS staff already, many of whom are pushed to the limit. How would you get an extra 20% out of them? Or recruit enough staff to cover the gaps?

MarshaBradyo

And with respect, I don’t see anything “centre left” in anything you’ve put across here. You seem to me to be an example of someone saying they’re on the left, but actually trying to redefine the spectrum so that “centre left” actually looks like pro-business, pro-competition, pro-globalisation, small state, free market etc. You may be a centrist but where is the left?

Ok. Good. The thing is, progressive policies need to be viable. Being progressive is not the same as being economically irresponsible, which frankly, Labour's manifesto was. That's why it failed

I see you trying to redefine where you are standing as not far left. So it’s relative isn’t it.

I want to protect the NHS, I also prefer progressive not flat tax.

And agree with viable. The manifesto does not work economically.

AuntSpiker

Yes, there would be a cost to it. I didn’t deny that. I am simply not ruling it out as ridiculous because it would come with a price.

As for the impact of a 4 day week on a bricklayer, ask the brickie. I know bricklayers and I know that many of them are forced into early (often poor quality) retirement because of the sheer physicality of the job over a 5 or even a 6 day week. Yes, some dynamics of that industry would need to change. Yes, it might cost more to build, but maybe we build too much anyway. Maybe some of those jobs would go, and instead we could focus on repurposing buildings instead of developing green field sites.

The thing is no matter what you call it I’ll vote for Labour with a good leader who doesn’t put forward unworkable ideas that will bankrupt a country. Which is not the policies from Corbyn.

MarshaBradyo

I’m not actually far left. I’m centre left. I don’t believe in inheritance tax, for example. I’m not remotely anti-business and believe in exemptions from various regulations for genuinely small firms, for example. I am not particularly pro-immigration and I do believe in people paying for NHS treatment (means-tested) when they aren’t citizens.

But you are attempting to define my politics as “extreme” and “hard” - they’re not. They’re just not slightly right of centre.

Yes, it might cost more to build, but maybe we build too much anyway

But Jeremy wanted to build 100,000 social housing homes a year . You can't just blithely say yes it might cost more to build. It would cost more to build, and it's the people buying in the private sector, or the council in the case of social housing, who world have to pay. That would put house price inflation even higher, and put huge pressure on public spending

All those things are not far left no. But Corbyn’s manifesto was too far left for many. Most people want to vote around the centre so it’s crazy to not work with this. And centre left obviously works for Labour rather than too far left.

Ok he got it wrong it happens (how much would he have known there was dislike in advance? some knowledge I’m sure). But to not learn from a defeat like this is crazy.

But Jeremy wanted to build 100,000 social housing homes a year confused. You can't just blithely say yes it might cost more to build. It would cost more to build, and it's the people buying in the private sector, or the council in the case of social housing, who world have to pay. That would put house price inflation even higher, and put huge pressure on public spending

But I don’t agree with Corbyn on everything. I would like to see more social housing, but I would like to see more redevelopment rather than new building taking place and, where new homes are needed (not denying that they are) I would like to see more environmentally friendly buildings erected, not necessarily the traditional bricks and mortar model.

I would also introduce rent increase caps, making buy-to-let less attractive.

Ok he got it wrong it happens (how much would he have known there was dislike in advance? some knowledge I’m sure). But to not learn from a defeat like this is crazy.

I agree that there needs to be a period of reflection, which is what he said.